5.9 Cummins, NV4500, Hydro-boost, and Disc Brakes

[mudguppy]

That is an awesome truck build!!!

I put a Hydro Max system on my crane truck and I love it, love it, love it! Towbarring another deuce truck w/w bring me to a total combined weight of around 32,000lbs and the Hydro Max will slow me down with my big toe and I haven't any worries since it's factory rated to 43,000lbs gross.

My question is when I was looking to do this I looked into hydroboost and it just didn't have the braking power multiplication or GVWR near to the Hydro Max. To do the job the H-boost system would be at like 90% of it's total ability all the time stopping the truck. I know your bobbed truck is a little lighter but the massive 1600's are a far cry from anything the F550 ever saw and combined with the weight of the truck...is getting up there in the actual leverage and mass over the brakes. I had talked to a h-boost company that deals specifically in retrofitting h-boost to vehicles. They had all kinds of info on all the factors contributing to braking efficiency and they were actually the people that pointed me to Hydro Max as juice brakes with nearly triple the brake multiplication of h-boost.

I am NOT picking apart your truck...just referencing what I had come across when researching brake systems. Your truck is GREAT!!!

no worries - i don't take it as criticism.

the truck is probably around 11k lbs. i'm not towing or hauling with this truck, so i don't expect the load to ever reach higher than, say, 12.5k lbs. it's F550 stuff from MC to brake pads; this system is designed to operate in 19k lbs GVWR. the rotors are from a 26k lb GVWR International truck all around; they are the same size as F550 rear rotors (where the braking effort is focused due to loading) but are actually bigger than F550 fronts (which is where my braking efforts need to be focused).

so, my truck is little more than the weight of an empty F550 but has a 19k lb rated brake circuit and leverage of 26k lb rotors.

it may not be perfect, but it's infinitely better than the stock setup. i am an engineer, although not an automotive engineer; but based on my understanding and things i have researched, i have confidence in it.

although, i haven't really done a tremendous amount of driving. so i still need to find faults and develop limitations.

 

[mudguppy]

sorry for no updates in a while... i've been traveling for work a bit, and it's been cold enough to sap the motivation out of me when i've had time.

but, mainly because i've only recently finished something that's been kicking my ace......... guages.


i knew i'd need some guages, i just didn't know which initially. i settled on new:

• oil pressure
• coolant temp
• speedo
• tach

i decided to retain the OE:

• fuel level
• volt meter
• air pressure

i knew i would need to replace the tach because a) i would be using much more rpm than the gauge is capable, 2) i didn't have or want to install a mechanical drive, and iii) i wanted accuracy - something the OE is lacking.

i could have kept the OE speedo, but it would never be accurate. since the transmission already has a GM electronic VSS, i thought i should make use of it. and with a programmable speedo, i can actually have accuracy.

i also used a mechanical oil pressure and an electronic coolant temp gauge.

i settled on VDO because Stewart Warner will not work with you. they even told me this (since i'm not a dealer). so tech questions are routed to SW dealers (hot rod shops ) that don't know jack about how the guages work. VDO has a great look, great functionality, and a techline that will help.


anyway, what was kicking my butt for the last 3 weekends was the tach. before ordering, i spoke with a tech to help decide how i would run the tach: my alternator does not have an 'R' tap like bigger trucks with SI alternators. however, i do have a 'stator output' on my voltage regulator. we all thought this would work.

it didn't. at all. so then i attempted to utilize the OE engine speed sensor still on the Cummins. i found schematics and built a 5 volt power supply to drive the ESS. this didn't work, either. at all.

finally, i bought an inductive magnetic pickup and built a bracket to hold it against the harmonic balancer the same way that the OE ESS functioned. this worked. finally.

took it for a short spin yesterday and it works great. i also got the Ebay special LED rear lights painted up and installed - they work awesome.

today i'll get the GPS out and tune up the speedo and should be good to go in that department. however, the new guages really make the OE guages look bad. guess i need to see if they'll clean up or replace them. anyone need the OE gauges i took out?



since it should be nice today also, this may end up being 'light day.' i need to wire up:

• head lights (12V, run off of head light harness via 24V relay)
• driving lights (all 12V)
• reverse light (12V through trans reverse switch via 24V relay)
• work lights (all 12V with 'tie-in' switch to reverse light)

i wonder if i have enough connectors left...

 

[mudguppy]

that was dumb - all that talk about gauges and i didn't even mention the EGT or boost gauge. i think i forgot about them because they went in so well...


anyway, i re-used the Diprocol Optix gauges that i had in the Dodge. i found some universal 'bullet' gauge pods (Vission Maxx?). don't remember the name, but i still have the package and will post the name (if anyone cares). they hold the gauges great and come with 5 different mounting methods.

on the short drive yesterday it was interesting [funny?] to see how fast the EGTs could peg needle on the 1600° mark. i need more turbo...



"i gotta have more cowbell..."

 

[mudguppy]

... Bring it to Haspin this year. ...

initial response: you're nutz!

but, i had no idea where Haspin is; google says it's 482 miles from me. that's not that bad at all.

however, i can't do it without a trailer - i ain't driving that far in the deuce. main thing is that i come to play; 500 miles is a long way back in a broke truck.

it's doubtful i can find/buy a trailer in the next 4 months. but we'll see...




oh, and i'm not sure i can take back the initial response; i don't know you well enough.

 

[Flat Black]

Travis, good to see the truck running, hope you got some of the nice weather we had in ATL this weekend, it was 70 here yesterday.

My buddy Matt that came with me to visit you is pretty knowledgeable on Cummins if you want to talk to him about your turbo issues.

We will come back up for a ride when the cold weather stays away for a while.

Cheers,

Jon

 

[michigandon]

I had the pleasure of going for a ride in this magnificent piece of machinery yesterday. This gentleman definitely has something to be proud of.

 

[spicergear]

Travis, thanks for the reply on my post. It was just sort of thinking out loud (typed) about what my research had turned up.

1600*? Yeah...that pretty warm.

 

[terran698]

well encase your looking here are a couple of links to some good towing twins link1 link2 and i dont know if this will interest you or not but here is an aluminum cummins head that flows almost double stock link

 

[mudguppy]

... hope you got some of the nice weather we had in ATL this weekend, it was 70 here yesterday. ...

yep - it was frickin' gorgeous weather outside this weekend. got up to 70° here as well; that really helps with the motivation factor of getting things done.

... We will come back up for a ride when the cold weather stays away for a while.

Cheers,

Jon

you guys are welcome any time.

Travis, thanks for the reply on my post. It was just sort of thinking out loud (typed) about what my research had turned up. ...

no worries - i appreciate sharing your experiences with the hydromax. after i put some miles on this setup i should be able to develop a more complete conclusion about the current brake setup i have.

... 1600*? Yeah...that pretty warm.

it's not as scary as it sounds. it probably freaks a lot of people on this site out, but this is not a 'shocker' to diesel performance enthusiasts. it isn't the temperature that does harm, it's the length of exposure. i just need more air.

 

[mudguppy]

well encase your looking here are a couple of links to some good towing twins link1 link2 and i dont know if this will interest you or not but here is an aluminum cummins head that flows almost double stock link

thanks. i've been window shopping for quite a while now. i actually missed out on a sweet twins setup for cheap a few weeks ago.


i was originally planning on running twins; likely a system that utilizes the stock HX35 (if i don't ruin it between now and then ). i'm not needing much more power, just more air. to be honest, i'm not sure i could make use of much more than another 50 or so hp. i won't be towing with it and have no interest in trying to drag an 11k lb truck.

so with it being empty all the time, it scoots around just fine.

i guess the point i'm trying to make is whether or not i could/should justify the cost of a twin kit over a good single. right now i'm leaning toward the single: cost and installation room being the two biggest factors, followed closely by lag time.

Jon's buddy Matt sparked my interest in the he351ve, so i'm looking into that a bit more.

regardless, i still have to track down the driveline vibration before i add more power. it's speed and power dependant, which is pointing to the rear driveshaft. it's present at WOT above 50mph, or at ~60 mph cruising and compouded by more throttle. i'm pretty sure it's not the jackshaft. transfer input or output could also be a possibility.

 

[Flat Black]

Travis, You say you are looking into the HE351 that Matt and I talked to you about, but my understanding is that is for the new common rail trucks and I thought you had a 12 valve?

I could be mistaken on both as there maybe a way to make a variable electronic turbo work on an older motor, which would be very sweet IMO.

Keep the operation of the motor pretty simple (12 valve vs common rail) and then use a stand alone harness specifically for the turbo, just not sure if that is possible since the engine would not be computer controlled, there may be some signals missing.

I do know there are complete stand alone engine management systems for the common rail motors now, allowing you to swap them into pretty much anything, delete stuff you dont need, etc, but that can get pretty expensive too. This sucker retails for $4,000

http://www.dieselpowermag.com/tech/1101dp_swap_a_cummins_into_anything/index.html

If the link does not work search Zeus from Destroked. But I assume that is more than you want to get into for a deuce project. Zeus the duece does have a nice ring though, lol..

cheers,

 

[A DuB]

I just read through every page; very cool build! Im interested if you noticed a difference in fuel consumption. Also, did you cut some weight with the cummins and NV4500 over the multifuel and stock tranny?

 

[patracy]

Travis, You say you are looking into the HE351 that Matt and I talked to you about, but my understanding is that is for the new common rail trucks and I thought you had a 12 valve?

I could be mistaken on both as there maybe a way to make a variable electronic turbo work on an older motor, which would be very sweet IMO.

Keep the operation of the motor pretty simple (12 valve vs common rail) and then use a stand alone harness specifically for the turbo, just not sure if that is possible since the engine would not be computer controlled, there may be some signals missing.

I do know there are complete stand alone engine management systems for the common rail motors now, allowing you to swap them into pretty much anything, delete stuff you dont need, etc, but that can get pretty expensive too. This sucker retails for $4,000

Swap A Cummins Into Anything - Diesel Power Magazine

If the link does not work search Zeus from Destroked. But I assume that is more than you want to get into for a deuce project. Zeus the duece does have a nice ring though, lol..

cheers,

Fleece performance makes a controller for the HE351vgt to retrofit onto a 24V engine. (98.5 and up) But they were working on a second controller that also could monitor boost, rpm, and TPS from an earlier 12V mechanical engine.

 

[spicergear]

The NV4500 and 3053A transmission are nearly the same weight...like within 10 to 15 lbs when I weighed each at one time years back.

 

[mattg2448]

Did you pud in a Radio? Sounds like a good plan!

 

[bigzirb]

Sweet truck!!!

Awsome build, Very impressed with the amount of research before you started working. I tend to be a little short on research and more on problem solving in progress, I bet your way is faster and cheaper. Sweet truck. Now where are the videos of it romping through some mud?

 

[mudguppy]

Travis, You say you are looking into the HE351 that Matt and I talked to you about, but my understanding is that is for the new common rail trucks and I thought you had a 12 valve? ...

yeah, i did some researching and it is available for the 2nd gen 24v's as well. i spoke with Fleece; they are planning on creating a controller for 12v and other stand-alone apps.

from talking with them, it looks as though all i would need is a MAP sensor and TPS (and maybe rpm?); it gets this and some trans info from the OE CAN. they've put it on the 'back burner', for now, but expects to be working on it again soon. he said 60 days, but i put some more realistic words in his mouth about summer and he conceded.

 

[mudguppy]

... Im interested if you noticed a difference in fuel consumption. Also, did you cut some weight with the cummins and NV4500 over the multifuel and stock tranny?

yeah, trans is a wash. engine is likely in the neighborhood of 500lbs lighter.

i have only recently finished my guages and now have a functioning (and accurate) odometer. however, since i was never able to get accurate fuel consumption out of the OE setup, i have nothing to compare to.

and, in reality, i don't care much.

Did you pud in a Radio? ...

nah. to be honest, i'm so tired of wiring right now. yesterday i wired up the reverse light, aux driving lights, and rear work lights. i still have to wire in headlights. and this morning i noticed that the instrument panel lights are out.

i have thought about it, but i doubt that i'll put in tunes. the main reason is that if i'm going to do a stereo, i go big. but with the space constraints, i really can't fathom messing with that right now. i have the power requirements available, but i'm designing for worst case on the 12V electrical side: right now with everything on, i'm going to be approaching my 100A maximum. a basic head unit won't put me over, but a 4-channel amp would...

... Now where are the videos of it romping through some mud?

um, well i had it stuck this weekend. but i refuse to elaborate.

i've still got some things to finish up before off-roading begins. namely, i still don't have [proper] 4wd - i have to install the air compressor.

the weather will be warmer soon, right about the time i get most of these things done. then it'll be time.

 

[A DuB]

yeah, trans is a wash. engine is likely in the neighborhood of 500lbs lighter.

i have only recently finished my guages and now have a functioning (and accurate) odometer. however, since i was never able to get accurate fuel consumption out of the OE setup, i have nothing to compare to.

and, in reality, i don't care much.

I understand. People dont buy these things for fuel economy. I was just curious. Thanks

 

[Machinist22]

Now this is what I'm talking about!!! Mudguppy, very nice job! You have done all the things that I would like to eventually do to my first Deuce. . . once I buy my first Deuce, of course. Unfortunately, I am still in dreaming and wishing mode. Soon - I keep telling myself.

I would really be interested in seeing some stats regarding HP and TQ at the wheels. Also, I too would be interested in seeing the mileage numbers. I know the 5.9's are capable of 20 mpg or better in the pickups. I know the deuce is a bit heavier than them but should get better mileage and more power than the stock deuce configuration.

Again, nice build! I am definitely taking notes!