5 Ton CDL Inquiry Fun In Utah

[MilSpec78]

Hi everyone.

I am new here and recently became a fan of military vehicles. I have spent quite some time researching the various vehicles and I must say the 5 tons, in particular the M818s, have my attention.

This is a great site and I was not going to post here until I purchased a truck of my own but I had so much fun inquing about the need for a CDL in Utah today that I felt compelled to post. I apologize for the long windedness of this first post. I hope you find it amusing and hopefully useful.

I should start by saying SS member Valence posted on 4/3/12 his very helpful experience in registering, inspecting and licensing his 5 ton in Utah. In his post he was clear recreational driving of a 5 ton truck in Utah did not require a CDL. This was comforting but it is my responsibility to confirm this for myself.

I checked Utah's code concerning vehicle registration. My interpretation of the code also confirmed a CDL is not needed if the truck is used for recreational purposes. This made sense to me since it is a "commercial" drivers license.

Today I called Boyce Equipment to see if I could test drive a M818 and during that inquiry I asked about the CDL requirement. I was speaking to a very nice gentlemen and he let me know that they have differing opinions themselves and he could not give me a definite answer.

So, I decided to call the drivers license division of the DMV and I asked what I thought would be an easy question, "Does the recreational driving of a truck exceeding 26,000 pounds need a CDL?". The DMV agent did not know the answer and put me on hold to speak with the "CDL Guru". The CDL Guru's answer was "Call Highway Safety for the answer".

I call highway safety and a very humorous woman answers the phone. After a lot of fun chit chat, her answer to my question was "[...] and why couldn't the drivers license division answer your question?" After a few laughs she gives me three numbers to call: Ports of Entry, UT Highway Patrol and Safety Inspection. She said the drivers licenses division is where she would normally tell me to call but she thought that might be unhelpful since they told me to call her.

I call Safety Inspection and I get another great girl on the phone. Her response to the question "[...] and why couldn't the drivers license division answer your question?" Again, after another couple of laughs she says, "I am not an expert but it seems to me a CDL would not be needed for recreation" (think sarcasm in this statement). In addition, she tells me to call the Motor Carrier Division. They will have the answer!

I call the Motor Carrier Division and I could immediately tell the lady I was speaking to knew her stuff and she new all about MVs. She asked me all that I intended to do with it and then 100% confirmed a CDL is not needed if it is for recreational use. She added that it would not even matter if the truck was 100,000 pounds. In Utah, a CDL is only for commercial drivers.

Interestingly, she brought up parades as a final thought. She said these vehicles are often used in parades and if any advertising were on the truck during a parade it would then be considered a commercial truck and I would be driving it illegally without a CDL. In essence, any activity that could in any way be considered commercial would require a CDL. This included driving it to a store in any capacity for your work. An example provided was picking up sprinklers at your local home improvement center if you are a landscaper.

In the end, I got my answer and the conversations were fun. I hope my call to the insurance company is just as fun but hopefully not as long.

Thanks for the great site. I can't wait to get my hands dirty!

 

[Castle Bravo]

I for one applaud your concise and informative thread. I am glad that you have looked into this yourself and now have knowledge regarding CDLs in Utah. Thank you for understanding that it is a STATE specific issue. I had a M818 until recently and it was a blast. 5 tons are fun!

 

[wdbtchr]

Congradulations on your trip through the confusion of license issue.s I enjoyed the trip I took through the same maze here in Missouri a few years ago. I never did get a straight answer no matter who I talked to.

The drivers license office was no help from the clerks behind the counter, to the officer giving the drivers test.

I tried the Missouri Highway Patrol both in the local office and a couple of trooper I talked on the street, including an officer in a black pick-up whose job was commercial vehicle enforcement, probably the very one to give you a ticket if you were stopped.

Local county police were no help either at the station or street officers deferring to state authorities.

I even talked to the county sherrif in the county where I keep my vehicles.

I never did get a straight answer on the issue of wether a CDL was required for this type of driving I wanted to do. This was spread out over several years while I was restoring the truck and making repairs. By the time I needed to get it on the road I discovered that the issue of a CDL was moot because of health issues I can't get one anyway. Iust stay on the farm with mine. The nearest town large enough to hold parades if forty miles away so I quess I'll never get to display it. Life is a beach, then you die.

 

[Ruppster]

I call highway safety and a very humorous woman answers the phone. After a lot of fun chit chat, her answer to my question was "[...] and why couldn't the drivers license division answer your question?" After a few laughs she gives me three numbers to call: Ports of Entry, UT Highway Patrol and Safety Inspection. She said the drivers licenses division is where she would normally tell me to call but she thought that might be unhelpful since they told me to call her.

First off welcome to SteelSoldiers. Second, welcome to the world of big toys and all the b.s. that comes with them. I know what you mean when it comes to getting a straight answer about CDL requirements out of the folks at DMV. I've been playing that game for over 15 years now. When I first got in to semi trucks when we were in Alaska the DMV people kept telling me a CDL was required regardless of use for anything with a GVWR of 26,001 pounds or higher. When I asked what regulation said I needed a CDL all they could tell me was that it was required by the Feds. By this time I had already read CFR49 and knew that personal use vehicles were exempt. After I explained that to the DMV people they still kept saying I had to have a CDL. After several different calls I was finally told to call the State Troopers and ask for the Commercial Law Enforcement Office. The guy I got a hold of there knew right off the bat what state statute was involved and that while it followed the wording used by the Federal government in CFR49 the state of Alaska left out one important part, the part that exempted personal use vehicles. So a CDL was needed (unless it was registered as an RV) but that was due to state law and not Federal.

It got even funnier when I went in to get my Class A CDL. The state outsourced the hands on commercial driver's test to a truck driving school in Anchorage. When I tried to schedule my test they told me I didn't need one as I wasn't commercial. I told them they better check on that before they tell me I don't need it. They called me back the next day and asked when I wanted to take the test. Even they could not believe I was forced to get a CDL even though I was driving an antique truck for play and not for hire. The sad part was that this was the company responsible for CDL testing yet they didn't even know what the state required a CDL for.

It was because of this that I learned that each state is different. Now we are in Florida and they have a weird exemption for cargo trucks (no CDL needed) but if the truck has a fifth wheel hitch on it (like a semi tractor) then I need at least a Class B CDL. So by Florida rules I can drive an M813 with a regular license but if I get behind the wheel of an M818 I have to get a CDL, even if it's empty. To make matters worse some states even have non-commercial Class A and Class B licenses too.

You will find that your fun has just begun. Wait till you try to drive a 6x6 out of state. That's when you get in to the world of IRP (International Registration Plan) and IFTA (International Fuel Tax Agreement).

I do have one key piece of advice for you. It's highly likely you will run in to LEO's that think you need a CDL even though you know otherwise. I recommend you ask the person you talked to for the number of the regulation or state statute that says you don't need a CDL. Once you have that info read it for yourself and make a copy of the page(s) that prove you don't need it. Put that in a folder and keep that folder with you whenever you're driving the truck. I've done that with my truck and it has saved my backside so many times I've lost count.

Again, welcome to the fun of big toys.

By the time I needed to get it on the road I discovered that the issue of a CDL was moot because of health issues I can't get one anyway.

If you are still interested in getting the CDL you may want to look in to the med card requirement as they are two separate issues. A state can require a CDL but that does not meant a med card is also required. I have seen states define a vehicle as a Commercial Motor Vehicle (CMV) as any truck with a GVWR over 26,001 pounds or more (regardless of use) in their statute that covers licensing requirements but in the statute that covers vehicle inspections and med cards they exempt personal use vehicles from the definition of CMV's. Even CFR49 only requires a med card if you are in commerce. So you might want to see what your state requires as it's quite possible you are exempt from a med card even though you might need to get a CDL. The only catch with this is due to a side effect from a new Federal requirement for states to connect CDL holders with their med cards. Check to see if your state has a waiver form that you can fill out so they will know if have a CDL but are not driving for hire and don't need a med card.

 

[MilSpec78]

Thanks for the welcome. It appears I had an easy go of it in UT. I guess I will need to learn about interstate travel too. I have a lead on a M52 so maybe I'll get my truck soon.

Ruppster: Great advice and info. This is particularly true about keeping paperwork in the truck.

wdbtchr: I searched MO code this morning and I could not find any exemption for personal use. I did not have time to search med card needs. However, there are exemptions you might meet and RVs are exempt. I do not know the truck you have but you may be able to modify it or add a shelter to it to meet the RV exemption. I am no expert in MO licensing code so I have added links below for your reference. I hope this helps.

http://dor.mo.gov/forms/Commerical_Driver_License.pdf
http://hhrvresource.com/Images/PDFs/StateDriverLicense/MO_302_775.pdf
Section 301-010 Definitions.
Section 700-010 Definitions.
Commercial Driver's License Program (CDL/CDLIS) - Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration
http://www.nfpa.org/assets/files/pdf/rop/1192-f2001-rop.pdf

 

[Construction]

My advice is get your CDL if you plan to do any commercial work with the truck, otherwise you should be fine. I also see a lot where folks say it is OK to register as "antique" and pay less registered tax - do not do that unless you are legit in your purchase being just for fun. I am all for doing it right. Want to run commercial - pay tax and get CDL - for fun, get "antique" plates and cruise around town.

 

[CombatVet]

Great info and advice. Thanks fellas!

 

[ratat98]

this makes me want to go look at 5-tons now... Oh the addiction just can't be stopped!!!

 

[erixun]

5 ton CDL Utah

So to answer the question if you need a CDL to drive one of these trucks in Utah, has been answered already in this thread, and the answer is: No- IF you are not using it in a commercial aspect and only as a recreational or personal purpose.

You will run into law enforcement officers that say you HAVE to have a CDL. I would advise you to print off the following state code and keep it in your truck, I also would advise you not to be smug in talking with the officer- he still can issue a citation and impound your truck- you probably would win in court- but only after you had to pay the impound/tow fee's and then take time off from work to appear, etc etc. Not worth it IMHO. It is a little known fact among the law enforcement community and drivers license division, that there is an exemption. Here is a link to the Utah CDL handbook- and on page 1-1 it lists the exemptions: (these books are free at any Utah Driver license office- I carry one in my truck as well)

http://publicsafety.utah.gov/dld/documents/2010CDLDRIVERMANUAL-Draft.pdf



and here is the Utah code: [53-3-102(4)(b)(iv)]

53-3-102. Definitions.
As used in this chapter:
(1) "Cancellation" means the termination by the division of a license issued through error or fraud or for which consent under Section 53-3-211 has been withdrawn.
(2) "Class D license" means the class of license issued to drive motor vehicles not defined as commercial motor vehicles or motorcycles under this chapter.
(3) "Commercial driver license" or "CDL" means a license:
(a) issued substantially in accordance with the requirements of Title XII, Pub. L. 99-570, the Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1986, and in accordance with Part 4, Uniform Commercial Driver License Act, which authorizes the holder to drive a class of commercial motor vehicle; and
(b) that was obtained by providing evidence of lawful presence in the United States with one of the document requirements described in Subsection 53-3-410(1)(i)(i).
(4) (a) "Commercial motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles designed or used to transport passengers or property if the motor vehicle:
(i) has a gross vehicle weight rating of 26,001 or more pounds or a lesser rating as determined by federal regulation;
(ii) is designed to transport 16 or more passengers, including the driver; or
(iii) is transporting hazardous materials and is required to be placarded in accordance with 49 C.F.R. Part 172, Subpart F.
(b) The following vehicles are not considered a commercial motor vehicle for purposes of Part 4, Uniform Commercial Driver License Act:
(i) equipment owned and operated by the United States Department of Defense when driven by any active duty military personnel and members of the reserves and national guard on active duty including personnel on full-time national guard duty, personnel on part-time training, and national guard military technicians and civilians who are required to wear military uniforms and are subject to the code of military justice;
(ii) vehicles controlled and driven by a farmer to transport agricultural products, farm machinery, or farm supplies to or from a farm within 150 miles of his farm but not in operation as a motor carrier for hire;
(iii) firefighting and emergency vehicles; and
(iv) recreational vehicles that are not used in commerce and are driven solely as family or personal conveyances for recreational purposes.


Hope this helps out.

 

[erixun]

5 ton CDL Utah and registration

You could also go one step further in your adventures with the argument of needing a CDL and register the vehicle as a "special interest vehicle" with the state. It will cost you about $10 more for the plate- but might also go the extra mile to show that you are NOT a commercial vehicle.

Here is the code that you could use to show that you are a special interest vehicle:


Utah Code Title 41 Chapter 1a

41-1a-102 (57)

(57) (a) "Special interest vehicle" means a vehicle used for general transportation purposes and that is:
(i) 20 years or older from the current year; or
(ii) a make or model of motor vehicle recognized by the division director as having unique interest or historic value.
(b) In making his determination under Subsection (57)(a), the division director shall give special consideration to:
(i) a make of motor vehicle that is no longer manufactured;
(ii) a make or model of motor vehicle produced in limited or token quantities;
(iii) a make or model of motor vehicle produced as an experimental vehicle or one designed exclusively for educational purposes or museum display; or
(iv) a motor vehicle of any age or make that has not been substantially altered or modified from original specifications of the manufacturer and because of its significance is being collected, preserved, restored, maintained, or operated by a collector or hobbyist as a leisure pursuit.

And you could also join the MVPA to show that you are a hobbyist or collector. Just sayin-


And you would need to fill out this form for the DMV at the time of titleing and registation: TC-817

http://tax.utah.gov/forms/current/tc-817.pdf

(Put "special interest" in the Utah special group plate box. Section 3)


Again I hope this helps out a little. I did not use this route, I had some plates that were off of a truck I had in the 90's when I was in the Navy that I wanted to use, so I had them transferred over. If they wouldnt have done that, this was the route I had planned out for me.

 

[mckeeranger]

Farm Tag

If anyone is using an MV for farming, you might want to look that up as well. As of this year, in Kentucky, we have to get a CDL for anything licensed FARM with a GVW of 26,001# or more. Non-commercial is still Okay.

We got the attached notice when we re-licensed the XM817 this spring.