5 ton clutch problems

[2deuce]

I'm looking for some advice on what may be wrong with the clutch. It has the Gasser engine and hasn't been run in a few years. Got it started, pushed in the clutch pedal, went in gear fine, moved it forward about 15 feet, thought I would test the brakes but it wouldn't come out of gear. I adjusted all the free play out of the pedal but no change. Won't go in gear with the engine running. Any ideas what might have happened in my short test drive?

Thanks,
Greg

 

[devilman96]

Proably broke a finger or two on the pressure plate. Happens when they sit for to long, the plates rust and to much force causes the fingers to let go at the base. My deuce was a victim of this but it took a little longer for it to go. Did so about 260 miles into the trip home, lucky I had Kenny to the rescue with his tow bar.

I assume because I don't know 5 tons but there is proably a small inspection cover, pull it and take a look inside at the plate fingers near the swivel point bet ya find at least one broke and at least another two cracked or broken.

Yank the tranny... buy or rebuild the clutch and pressure plate... surface the flywheel... change the rear main seal... Pilot bearing... gripe... piss... moan.... and be happy when its all over with...

 

[2deuce]

I looked up in the inspection hole and can see nothing wrong except that 2 springs in the clutch seem to be very close together, but then again maybe they should be. I didn't see any broken parts. I had my son push in the pedal while I watched thru the inspection hole. I could see the throwout bearing move forward but those 2 springs never moved. That transmission looks very heavy. If I have to pull it is it possible to just move it back enough or does it have to come all the way down and out?

Thanks

 

[Recovry4x4]

The tranny is suspended by the bellhousing. Once slid back you would be sitting under it working and I don't trust anything hanging like that. You can use an engine hoist through the passenger door or a 4x4 across the back of the cab through the window and a QUALITY come a long to suspend and drop it on the ground. No way in creation would I get under that transmission.

 

[devilman96]

Kinda hard to spot unless you know what your looking for... The fingers stay in place and move as they should aganst the bearing when pushing the clutch in and out... But part of or all of the pressure plate does not move and disengage. You would need to rotate the clutch and look at each side one by one to see if the PP is moving in and out (not the fingers and bearing).

Check out the photos below, you can see where the fingers like to break, it may not be possible to see this part of the plate in the truck (I don't know).

As for the tranny... just count on dropping it, its big but is far easier than doing most cars on the road today. Like Kenny said... stay out from under the darn thing because it will flatten you like a pancake.

 

[gringeltaube]

Won't go in gear with the engine running.

I would also suspect the input shaft sticking in the pilot bearing (grease dried out, rust, etc. after so many years standing still).
Did you try to "force" it into 4th or 5th while standing, engine running and clutch pedal depressed?
Tranny has to be pulled anyways!

 

[2deuce]

RE: Re: 5 ton clutch problems

Thanks for all those pictures. I can't see that area from the inspection plate. There is a crossmember right under the inspection plate that makes it hard to see in there also. It does look like the 2 springs that I can see are touching eachother, one almost behind the other. It doesn't look right, but it may be the skewed angle that I have to look up in there.
I didn't try to force it in gear with the engine running,but I did give it a yank out of 1st gear when I pushed in the clutch pedal and the clutch didn't work. I did put the transfer case in neutral and run it through the gears but not before I had problems with it.
My biggest concern is getting the transmission down and then back up and lining that huge thing up. It makes a deuce transmission look tiny. It will have to go back 6 inches or so to clear that crossmember. If I suspend it from the top with a 4x4, I think moving it back to lower it might be impossible. If it would go nearly straight down that could work but it can't. It is on a cement floor so if I had something to jack it up and roll it back then lower it, that might work.The engine hoist might work if I can get it to roll back. I'll do some measuring. Please post if you have done this job or have a good idea how best to get the job done. I know I don't want to be underneath that heavy thing, I like pancakes but I don't want to be one!
Here I am, pissin and moaning and I haven't even started yet.
Greg

 

[gringeltaube]

Re: RE: Re: 5 ton clutch problems

My biggest concern is getting the transmission down and then back up and lining that huge thing up. It makes a deuce transmission look tiny. It will have to go back 6 inches or so to clear that crossmember. If I suspend it from the top with a 4x4, I think moving it back to lower it might be impossible.

I know it's not a lightweight but nothing is to heavy for a good chain hoist... Use two at the same time, one for one aft, hanging from the same pole at 2' distance at an angle, attached to the same shackle/chain around the tranny. That way you can control the horizontal movement without risk.

Don't know about that crossmember...

 

[Recovry4x4]

RE: Re: RE: Re: 5 ton clutch problems

I know about the swing of it, dealt with that before. When removing I put the lifting device a little towards the back so when it comes loose it swings back. Do the reverse for the install. When it gets close I pull the tranny back and have soldier B crank the lifting device. Pain? Yes! Can it be done in the parking lot of Walmart? Yes! Be careful and wear the common sense hat. Engine crane through the passenger door is much easier. The 6352 and 6453 are pretty hefty gear boxes and arre one of the biggest shnchromesh boxes I know of.

 

[M543A2]

There is a nice transmission removal hoist made by the military for this job. I happened to pick one up on Govliquidation a few years ago. It has legs that sit on the cab floor each side of the opening with a winch and cable you attach to the trans. The winch drum is supported by bearings on a square shaft such that once the trans is supported and loosened from the bell, it can be slid back far enough to remove the pilot shaft out of the bell and clutch. To re install, you slide it forward. I see you are too far from Indiana for me to let you borrow it. If someone closer has one, it would be the nicest thing you ever used for the job!
Regards Marti Sacks

 

[2deuce]

Today I pulled the transmission back far enough to take the throwout bearing out. It looked OK. There are alot of nicks on the outer areas of the clutch like something small was knocking around in there like maybe a washer. Some of the bolts that hold the clutch on are loose, one is about half way out. The clutch itself looks fairly new and cleaner than I expected. What I'm wondering is could those loose bolts be my problem? Would that keep the clutch from releasing? I don't have a lineup tool so I didn't want to take everything apart if I don't have to. I can't see anything else wrong. This is my first truck transmission any advice is appreciated.
Greg

 

[clinto]

Greg, if the pressure plate is not tight, that can cause it not to fully engage. While you are under there, tighten the bolts and watch the fingers while you are at it. If they move any, then throw the trans back in and see what happens.

 

[2deuce]

I think I'll tighten the bolts and try it out. I hope the clutch hasn't moved any and the trans will go back in easy. Maybe I should just hope it goes back in, cause something that big and heavy isn't going to be easy at least for me.

Greg

 

[73m819]

i brought a dummy input shaft ( for my 5t) from napa truck supply for a total of 9.18, there number is 5380, the dementions are 1 3/16 pilot, 1 3/4 across the spline at the high spot(course spline) any big truck supply house will have it, the bolts came loose for a reason, first put in NEW grade 8 bolts and lock washers incase of streatch or being deformed, second try to fine the source of the viberation that loosened the bolts, the touque for these bolts as well as the trans mount bolts is 25 to 31 ft lbs, this is for clean threads in the hole and the on the bolt, hope this helps, good luck, if i can help anymore let me know

 

[devilman96]

Good chance the bolts are stripped... Many peole make the mistake of not changing them when doing the clutch...

 

[73m819]

when i pulled the trans i had a come-a-long two parted hung from a stought pipe that went from the back window to the front one, i pulled it out , then let it down to the #$%^&^^$ cross member, then hooked a second come-a-long to the rear of the trans and pulled it back to clear the menber, lowered down. the trans comes out only one way as there is almost no clearance with the tf case, i have some grade 8 long bolts i made into alinement pins to help getting things alined for the reinstall, hopefully this afternoon

 

[2deuce]

Thanks Guys for the heads up on those bolts. I was going to reuse them but that sounds like a mistake. I used an engine hoist threw the passenger door with 2 slings around the tranny. Then used a come-along to drag the front wheels on the hoist to pull the tranny back.
I was wondering if whoever put this clutch in last just left it loose by accident or because they were having trouble lining everything up. The bolts holding the short driveline between the tranny and transfer were all loose too with some starting to back out, so it was probably just sloppy work. There is a rebuild tag on the transfer case so I'm guessing that they changed the clutch at the same time as the t-case, cause the clutch looks fairly new.
Those input shaft, Napa #'s for your 5-ton, 73m819, would they be good on a early 5-ton as mine is a 50's with the gas engine.
Thanks,
Greg

 

[73m819]

yes on the dummy shaft, as all the 5ts have the same trans input shaft. as far as the bolts for ALLl the drive lines , these are SPECIAL bolts that are used here, thay are a sholdered bolt with the sholder being 1/2", in the bolt supply houses the 1 1/4 bolt only has a 1/4 sholder, the correct bolt is a tap fit in the flang holes,thay are really a dowal bolt, thay are designed to take the sheer load between the two flanges and the nut just keep it together, if you use standard bolts even grade 8 , thay fit LOOSE in the holes, what happens is that no matter how tight you get the nut and bolt the flanges will try to move a bit because of the large sheer load, in time the bolt will stretch, if you look at a standard bolt that came from there you will see where the flanges worked on the threads, i found standard bolts when i took the 819 apart, thay were loose(the nilocks were still tight)and showed this sheer ware, it was hard to find these bolts, everybody said" oh we just use standard bolts"mainly because yhay cant find them, im getting mine from Sam Winer 330-628-4881, ask for the military parts guy-- robert. the nsn number is nsn 5306-191-1139, THERE IS NO WAY THAT NON DOWAL BOLTS CAN WITHSTAND THE HIGH, CONSTENT SHEER, OVER TIME THAY WILL LOOSEN ,because the whole unit is held together with just compresson, as thay streach the problem get worse both with the bolts and wallowing out the hole, hope this helps.
guys it mite pay you to check out your flang to flang bolts, your trans to transfer if nothing ealse, just because the military did the last fix on your truck does not mean that thay used the right bolts (my bolts had a least one coat of paint), thay would use what thay could find

 

[2deuce]

I finally got back under the truck tonight. The driveline bolts all had the 1/2 inch shoulder except one which had no shoulder. So I don't know why they all were loose unless they never were tightened in the 1st place. There were only 3 bolts loose on the clutch and each had at least 1 tight bolt between them which makes me think the reason for no clutch lies elsewhere. I'm going to dig deeper and remove the clutch tomorrow. Greg

 

[2deuce]

Hey Ron, I went to Napa. 5380 for a dummy input shaft didn't work. Is there another #? They said they have a universal tool but its over twice the cost. Thanks, Greg