5ton to m35 power steering upgrade

[7bdiver]

I believe it depends on the system. At some point, I read that you still can turn some, with difficulty, with a good ram setup like the PSC system above. Eh, not convinced in theory, but I haven't' had time to check on how an orbital valve actually works.

One thing I do like about this system is that it takes all the load off your steering box and sector shaft. Especially with traditional power steering, i could see the load of oversized tires trashing the sector shaft in the steering box. Hydraulic assist would be recommended in that case.

I see a lot of claims that full hydro steering is illegal, however I see plenty of claims saying it is not. There are just as many laws, depending on your state, that say you can't modify your steering system at all.

One could say that full hydraulic steering would still be safer than the original manual steering on a deuce. safer on your own hands at least... opinions on having control of your vehicle could be made too. I personally would feel safer controlling my truck with the power of a hydraulic system than fighting the wheel like hell in a bad situation like a front blowout.

Either way, like with any risky system on these trucks, as long as you do your pro-op checks like you always should, a full hydraulic system should be perfectly safe. They are only as risky as you let them be.

I am really considering this PSC system. they've been tried and trued on these rockwells for some time now.


On a side note, I was wondering if one might be able to run the hydraulic steering orbital valve in parallel with the original steering box, say by a chain off the steering shaft, kind of like how a transfer case runs two shafts. You should be able to size sprockets and the lock-to-lock ratio to match closely enough. Just a thought.

 

[sue]

We made a steel backup plate for the box on the frame. Called a semi truck wrecking yard. Told the gentleman what I was looking for and he call back sent some pictures and sent us a pitman arm that worked fine. Our total cost was about 10-12 man hours, about $450 for the box, $25 for the pitman arm, $125 for the cat hydraulic pump, For the hoses, $50 ish, $25 for the reservoir and called borgeson
For steering shaft and u joints $75?.
Wouldn’t change the steering feel an ounce!!

 

[7bdiver]

After looking at power steering stuff for a while. I noticed one option that might be worth looking into. It's called a power steering servo. It's the same rotary valve that you would find in your normal powers steering box, but a stand alone version. You can simply throw it in your steering shaft and use it to run an assist ram. It would take a little bit of custom work on your steering column, but not bad.

This way, you keep the original steering gear box, mechanical linkage, and don't have to do all that chassis work. Using an assist ram will take most of the load off the sector shaft, which is a better approach in my opinion.

Sweet is a manufacturer I noticed, but I'm sure there are more, and cheaper.

I think this is the approach I will take in the spring. I will need to find the servo valve I want and then source the pump and ram kit.

 

[7bdiver]

This is the basic diagram they have on their site. Instead of the rack and pinion though, that would be your steering box. Then the hydraulic lines would go to your assist ram. They sell nice little spline adapters on their site as well, so the steering shaft mods would be pretty easy.

If you paid full price for everything, I could see it costing:

5-600 for the steering valve and spline fittings. You can find these used online for waaay cheaper
3-500 bucks for a hydraulic pump for the multifuel
3-900 bucks for the ram, kit, depending on how fancy you want to get.
1-200 for misc lines and fittings, a guess.

 

[porkysplace]

where I am a vehicle would not be road legal if the steering function cannot be maintained when the power plant dies.

Same here in Michigan , they are illegal.

 

[sue]

Same here in Michigan , they are illegal.

That was a real concern of our to have and be able to steer if there was a breach in the hydraulic system or a engine failure of some type.
That’s why we went the way we did. We have friends who are diehard rock crawlers and they use the popular hydraulic ram steering system, any failure of the system or power drive( electric or vehicle engine)
There steering wheel is now frozen soild immediately. I don’t like to drive across the desert at 40 mph with them, and one of routinely drives his vehicle around town on a weekly basis.

 

[deathrowdave]

I adapter a Garrison Power Assist Steering to my M35 . It worked faultlessly , I think you can still purchase the system new .

 

[7bdiver]

Ok, now I think I understand the garrison unit. What a strange unit. It basically replaces the drag link and is pressure sensitive, diverting hydraulic pressure to an assist ram when the pitman arm pushes on it. When you let go of the wheel, the pressure on it will reduce and allow the steering to recenter.

Did I get that right?

The garrison kit sounds pretty easy to install. You just remove the drag link and put er in there. And for way cheap.

Makes me wonder why people have gone through so much trouble and money to swap out their steering boxes. I guess there would be less hydraulic lines, but thats about it.

Heres what that looks like. It didn't appear there was a picture of the unit when it was originally talked about by Deathrowdave.

 

[porkysplace]

Ok, now I think I understand the garrison unit. What a strange unit. It basically replaces the drag link and is pressure sensitive, diverting hydraulic pressure to an assist ram when the pitman arm pushes on it. When you let go of the wheel, the pressure on it will reduce and allow the steering to recenter.

Did I get that right?

The garrison kit sounds pretty easy to install. You just remove the drag link and put er in there. And for way cheap.

Makes me wonder why people have gone through so much trouble and money to swap out their steering boxes. I guess there would be less hydraulic lines, but thats about it.

Heres what that looks like. It didn't appear there was a picture of the unit when it was originally talked about by Deathrowdave.

Because that is a power assist like the air operated assists not a true power steering . Ford used Garrison and Bendix power control valves in the 70's and can be a pain to get adjusted right.

 

[gringeltaube]

Makes me wonder why people have gone through so much trouble and money to swap out their steering boxes.

I tried to explain it here...

 

[HN6]

I'm considering the style of system you did over the other traditional power steering systems out there. 3500 bucks and all that work seems a bit much. Plus all the downtime on the truck. it looks like you could build your setup in parallel, leaving most of the original components in place in case you ever needed to fall back on them.

How much $$ did it end up running you by the time you were finished?

I'm mainly considering this because I plan to bump up to 395's and it will see off-road use. I need to be able to steer the truck more than it steers me.

My main wonder is how responsive is the steering. Say on the road, if you had to swerve to not die, will it turn the wheels fast enough, or is it slow, like most hydraulics?

It was expensive, I agree, but seems like everything is. The cost was the PSC system plus the gear driven pump from a 5 ton. More cost if you don't trust your welding for attaching to front axle would have to hire that out plus a small piece of steel plate. All in all the waterloo system is a few hundred less expensive and no welding to install. Less parts to break on the PSC compared to conventional power steering.

 

[7bdiver]

HN6, you did a pretty nice hefty job of putting that bottom plate on there for sure. I was wondering, if a person were feeling a little lazier, if you could just mount the plate across the bottoms of the U-bolts that hold the springs on. It'd be 8 pretty big bolts.... plus I believe there are lumps on the casing that keep everything from shifting side to side already. I don't know though, if you hit something hard, it might still try to scoot around. I had originally considered this as a place to mount a little skid plate to protect the punkin from big ass rocks, like what would be in a creek bed.

Any opinions?

 

[HN6]

I do not know enough about the hydraulic cylinder setup to see whether it would be a problem, but where I am a vehicle would not be road legal if the steering function cannot be maintained when the power plant dies. I know - even with conventional power steering the steering box ratio will make it darn hard to turn the wheels, but you still can, when the truck is rolling. Does that work with the ram as well?

HN6, you did a pretty nice hefty job of putting that bottom plate on there for sure. I was wondering, if a person were feeling a little lazier, if you could just mount the plate across the bottoms of the U-bolts that hold the springs on. It'd be 8 pretty big bolts.... plus I believe there are lumps on the casing that keep everything from shifting side to side already. I don't know though, if you hit something hard, it might still try to scoot around. I had originally considered this as a place to mount a little skid plate to protect the punkin from big ass rocks, like what would be in a creek bed.

Any opinions?

I just kinda copied what I see all the other guru's doing. I have not ever seen a bolt on method. I made sure it would hopefully not catch on anything going forward or reverse when trying to get unstuck. yes, lots of large bolder/ rocks everywhere i go as well.

I had both trucks out on a trip last year and I swapped tuck for a few miles and and I could not tell any difference between my PSC on the deuce and standard power steering on the 5 ton.

 

[HN6]

I do not know enough about the hydraulic cylinder setup to see whether it would be a problem, but where I am a vehicle would not be road legal if the steering function cannot be maintained when the power plant dies. I know - even with conventional power steering the steering box ratio will make it darn hard to turn the wheels, but you still can, when the truck is rolling. Does that work with the ram as well?

I went and did a test today to answer this question. This was a real actual test in the vehicle not hypothetical.

M35 with PSC: Engine off sitting still I can still barely turn tires. Driving and killing engine I can turn while coasting. 12r20tires on the snow.

Park the M35 walk over to the dodge...

2006 dodge 3500: engine off can not turn tires at all in neutral. Driving and turning engine off in neutral can barely steer .

Results: M35 with PSC full hydraulic steering turns easier in both situations than traditional power steering with engine off

 

[deathrowdave]

Don’t bash the Garrison System , it works and works fine , easy to install , I don’t own the truck I installed it on , but I know I drove the truck with this steering a few miles and not one issue . I did flip the caster shims on the axle , for better on road handling . The unit I had was massive and plenty powerful enough to turn the wheels at a dead stand still . I fell into the system I installed . I saw a cab and chassis from a fire truck being crushed , total system cost me $75.00 . I had to fab a bracket that bolted onto the lower spring plate , for the stationary end of the cylinder , other than that it was a bolt on and go .

 

[rustystud]

All purely hydraulic steering systems are illegal on all Federal Hiways. You must have a "physical" connection to the steering system.

 

[7bdiver]

Ok, so I'm going through my steering assist build. I've got the servo mounted and am mocking up where I want to put the ram. Its the same psc kit as cattlerepairman. I've got two options:

Mount the ram on a bigger plate welded to the differential, with an offset on it to keep it centered between the wheels. Like he did.

Or, mount it centered on the bell, which will keep it more tidy, but then use different length tie rods on the ends. Same offset the axles have, a 7" difference in length. Is that generally a no no, or ok?

I dont really have a preference myself, just asking for opinions. Both are about the same amount of work.

Making a cardboard template before I have my bud cut me a plate on his burn table.

 

[HN6]

Ok, so I'm going through my steering assist build. I've got the servo mounted and am mocking up where I want to put the ram. Its the same psc kit as cattlerepairman. I've got two options:

Mount the ram on a bigger plate welded to the differential, with an offset on it to keep it centered between the wheels. Like he did.

Or, mount it centered on the bell, which will keep it more tidy, but then use different length tie rods on the ends. Same offset the axles have, a 7" difference in length. Is that generally a no no, or ok?

I dont really have a preference myself, just asking for opinions. Both are about the same amount of work.

Making a cardboard template before I have my bud cut me a plate on his burn table.

Keep it centered.

 

[Bhussey]

Ok, so I'm going through my steering assist build. I've got the servo mounted and am mocking up where I want to put the ram. Its the same psc kit as cattlerepairman. I've got two options:

Mount the ram on a bigger plate welded to the differential, with an offset on it to keep it centered between the wheels. Like he did.

Or, mount it centered on the bell, which will keep it more tidy, but then use different length tie rods on the ends. Same offset the axles have, a 7" difference in length. Is that generally a no no, or ok?

I dont really have a preference myself, just asking for opinions. Both are about the same amount of work.

Making a cardboard template before I have my bud cut me a plate on his burn table.

Please post pictures and a parts list once it's all installed!

Sounds very interesting

 

[m-35tom]

Still a few kits available, these are the last to ever be made. https://www.waterloospecialties.com/steering/index.html