6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

[DMgunn]

Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

Singling the truck out will result in better fuel economy (because of the larger tires), higher road speed, better off-road traction and less drag on pavement as GIMPYROBB says.

Better off-road traction, yes, in ruts that aren't axle deep. BUT off-road flotation suffers considerably. I agree with ACE. Dual it up all around, particularly if you are doing alot of sand. After all, your front axle will have the highest contact pressure. Do not put the worn tires all on one axle (lots of wind-up). Put them on as outside duals, for several reasons:

1) Easier to change (after all, they are more likely to fail first).
2) Easier to keep an eye on.
3) Inner duals are carrying slightly more load, reducing bearing stress.
4) In the event of extreme wear variance, the outers barely contact the road, making them more "transparent" to handling, unless the road is badly grooved.

I my experience, singles (running in the same track) are superior in mud and ruts, and snow and ice - ONLY WHEN THERE IS A BOTTOM. When you get into the soft soil, sod, or sand, you will definitely appreciate the 100% extra flotation (over equivalent-sized singles) that duals provide.

Of course, super singles offer the best of both worlds, plus far superior tread designs.

 

[jimk]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

Thanks all. I was planning to go with 11:00x20 duals come re-shoe. Just needed to do some research first.

I just did a quick search on diameters :40" for 900x20's and 43" for 1100x20's. http://www.alfaheaven.com/Military Section/Accessories/Tires.html

That would mean 1-1/2" less 'clearance' than w/900x20's. If there's contact maybe add some limit straps in back? If they rub up front the limit screws are already present...

3" diameter means 9.4" farther down the road for every revolution and 1-1/2" more ground clearance. The higher air pressure means reduced rolling resistance. The additional 3800lb load cap. under the winch would be welcome too, as my 900x20's get hot on long trips. Seems like it might be worth the added cost. JimK

 

[jeli]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

Can we start a new folder on the forum just for wheels and tires??? I have a hard time finding old threads and with all the discussion about widening, making your own, or anything else about dual vs single it would be nice to have them in a single area.

 

[Dave_McConnell]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

I like my duals, plus they are appropriate to the era my truck is marked and painted. The idea of front duals is interesting. I've never seen a pic of an M35 w/ front duals. CCKW's, yes. How would you go about doing that? You would probably have four different track widths then.

 

[M1075]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

Duals in the front is accomplished the same way as the back, but yes they are going to stick waaay out. Not to mention that steering might be a little tough!

 

[oifvet]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

I was all set to convert from 9.00x20 duals to 11.00x20 duals until I started reading this thread!

Now I'm back to this ->

Thanks brothers!

 

[BEASTMASTER]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

you get a flat with singles and you ain't going anywhere, with duals you got 4 spares.

 

[sailor2000]

So who has experience with front duals???? Let's see some pics!!

 

[cranetruck]

Army Motors had some pictures of CCKWs with dual fronts for desert driving a few years ago, I'll look, maybe I can dig some out.

 

[gringeltaube]

Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

Of course, super singles offer the best of both worlds, plus far superior tread designs.

YES! That's definitely the way to go! And that's exactly what they did with the A3: 14.5R20 tubeless radial super singles.
I think that actually IS the greatest possible upgrade over a std. A2, on and off road!
1) Great flotation: these radials not only are wider but they also flex better and make a much longer footprint, speak contact area, specially when deflated. Way better than two 9.00x20 together as duals!
2) Greater puncture resistance and no inner tubes to be punctured and instantly loose all the air! And you can "collect" a lot of nails before a TL will run to flat!
3) Improved traction and grip thanks to modern tread design. Ever tried to exit a muddy ditch with the NDCCs?
4) Less rolling resistance on any surface! Even with a shy LDS427 and tires down to 25 psi you easily gain enough momentum to drive OVER soft sand dunes instead of start digging tunnels with 9.00x20s at 18 psi! My own experience!
5) Much better wear resistance!

My advice: Don't change anything else, just put modern shoes on and discover the world of the unstoppable deuces...!
Start saving money.... and have fun!

Gerhard

 

[cranetruck]

Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

.....
My advice: Don't change anything else, just put modern shoes on and discover the world of the unstoppable deuces...!
Start saving money.... and have fun! Gerhard

Of course this is nothing new, the very capable m656 8x8 series were fitted with single low pressure low profile, tubeless radial tires back in 1968. Almost a full 15 inches wide and off road TP all the way down to 10 psi, not 24 as specified for the "modern" FMTV 5-tonners.
Can't help it, I just love my old xm757 and will defend the technology used at the time as often superior to today's MVs.

 

[oifvet]

RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

Getting back to single 11.00x20s on an M35A2; I've seen the rear (single) wheels dished in on some, and out on others. What is the engineering behind this? Any benefit to either? Is the hub flipped on one method and not the other? Is this done to assure tires track in the same path?

 

[Junkyard Wars Crusher]

Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

To heck with the photos, check out the Haspin videos. There are some shots of Junkyard Wars Crusher's 5 ton going through the whoop dee doos that illustrate it well. .02

I don't know how I missed this thread, but here is the video link to which Gimp is referring. It is one of my favorites. It is a large file, so be patient while loading.

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.php?module=pagesetter&type=file&func=get&tid=4&fid=file&pid=76

Gimp was cameraman on this one.

 

[houdel]

Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

Getting back to single 11.00x20s on an M35A2; I've seen the rear (single) wheels dished in on some, and out on others. What is the engineering behind this? Any benefit to either? Is the hub flipped on one method and not the other? Is this done to assure tires track in the same path?

The "Lazy Man's" way to single out the rears is to just pull off one wheel off each rear rear hub. The rear wheels may be mounted dish in or dish out as the owner wishes. While this works in a way, the front and rear tires have a different track, and the rear wheel load is no longer centered between the wheel bearings, causing an eccentric loading on the wheel bearings.

The front and rear wheel hubs are identical, except the front hubs are already flipped, the front wheels are mounted dish out, and the wheel load is properly centered between the bearings. When the rear wheels are properly singled out, the rear hubs are flipped to match the front hubs and the single rear wheels are mounted dish out. Then the front and rear wheels have the same track width and the rear wheels are centered in the wheel bearings.

 

[DDoyle]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

I don't have the dimensions in front of me at the moment, but basically the offset of the wheels originally used with the 11.00 - 20 tires of the M34 and M135 is different than the offset of the wheels used with the 9.00-20 tires of the M35 and M211. With the correct wheels for single wheel operation the wheels are all mounted with the same orientation as those on the steering axle.

The military's recent refit of some of the M35A2 trucks with single rear tires was often accomplished by using the rims from M35A2, with a resulting difference in track from the M34. Of course, in addition to the army, any number of private users have set out to improve on the work of the engineers at Reo Motors on this subject. Personnaly, my money is still on Reo's engineers.

One of the primary advantages of the single tires is improved off-road performance - something noted by the army during WWII. When operating in mud, each of the tires tries to cut its own rut through the mud. With the singles, the number of ruts is cut in half- with a similar reduction in power requirements. Skeptical about this - ask a farm boy - would it easier to break ground with a two bottom plow or a four bottom plow? Same thing.

The short wheel base CCKW of WWII fame was furnished with two "spare" tires - this is because these trucks (the CCKW-352) were specifically intended to be artillery prime movers, and the two "spares" were intended to be mounted on the steering axle. As I recall, this was done when an increase in traction was required, rather than increased flotation.

Best wishes,
David Doyle

 

[OPCOM]

RE: Re: RE: Re: RE: 6 Wheels vs. 10 WheelsthereT

Dual 11.00x20's give a higher load rating as a safety factor, at least tire-wise. The shelter makes the truck top heavy and I would not be crossing very uneven surfaces. 99% of my use is on the road with 3 tons in the bed and that's where dual 11.00x20's seem to make the most sense.

I have been warned by the locals not to take the deuce at 20,000 lbs onto the sand at the beach at Padre Island, that it would get stuck. I don't want to find out nor to 'decorate' the beach permanently.

 

[Lax]

Here is one more thought to add to the mix. Why not run duels with chains? Chains (I'm told) make duels for off road very good and you have the best of both worlds. Float for soft areas and traction with the chains all around.

I know duels are far from great but I sure like having the extra tires just in case. I recall a story last year about the floods in Virginia. There were pictures of a duce helping flood victims. At the end of the story the driver mentioned how he must have hit something underwater and it tore up one of the rear tires pretty good. With the duels on the back he was able to keep working all day instead of being another casualty of the day.

What do you guys think of duels with chains for off road in water, snow or mud?? Anyone have any real word experiences we can hear about?

 

[DMgunn]

Duels with chains would be far too uncivilized for my taste.

I prefer a pair of gold-plated 1911s.

 

[cranetruck]

.....
What do you guys think of duels with chains for off road in water, snow or mud?? Anyone have any real word experiences we can hear about?

Chains give you superior traction in the snow and mud, they are self cleaning regardless of tire tread and there is no need to air down.

Image shows my working deuce some ten years ago, driving uphill in a foot of snow was never a problem. Did some measurements (what's new?) and it could easily handle a 20% grade in a foot of snow.
Takes me less than 1/2 hour to install all six chains on my current singles, two people can get it done in ten minutes.

The "dishing out" of the wheels for singles adds about 3-3/4 inches of track width and makes up for some of the loss of side slope capability.

 

[oifvet]

Duels with chains would be far too uncivilized for my taste.

I prefer a pair of gold-plated 1911s.

I've often thought of the deuce-and-a-half as the, "1911" of military trucks!