803a won't restart

[jamawieb]

Really sounds like a similar situation I had once. Ran perfect when first started, then after about 10 minutes die and could not restart, then after 15 minutes it would restart. Finally found that I had some foreign matter (looked like a pieces of paper towel) in the tank. It would come dislodged as the engine ran and float around until it got sucked up on the dip tube, which would cutoff the flow of fuel. After it dies, reach into the fuel tank and feel to the right, you will feel the dip tube going down, see I anything is stuck to the bottom.

 

[Guyfang]

Today's update:
started up and ran perfectly when cold. Let it run for 10-15 min and it started running rough...not holding steady RPM. Turned it off and it would not start again until it cooled. There is no Wetstscking...it had 6hrs. Exhaust is clean.

Im wondering if it could be an injector issue or cylinder?...with heat expansion. But I'd still figure it should restart.

This is a simple fuel problem. Nothing more. We need to figure out why it's stopping, but its not something serious.


Did any idiot lights come on when it started acting up?
How much fuel is in the tank?

Justacitizen: Yes, they have a low fuel shut off to turn the engine off, when the fuel level in the tank hits a certain level. BUT, it that happened, you would get an idiot light, LOW FUEL, AND it would shut off the gen set. That did not happen.

 

[Guyfang]

Really sounds like a similar situation I had once. Ran perfect when first started, then after about 10 minutes die and could not restart, then after 15 minutes it would restart. Finally found that I had some foreign matter (looked like a pieces of paper towel) in the tank. It would come dislodged as the engine ran and float around until it got sucked up on the dip tube, which would cutoff the flow of fuel. After it dies, reach into the fuel tank and feel to the right, you will feel the dip tube going down, see I anything is stuck to the bottom.

Alfredo,

Now that you have described the problem a bit more, this is my first guess as to the problem. Even though you felt around in the tank and it felt clean, that may not be good enough.

You said you "Changed oil and filters". please explain further. What filters? The fuel filter? How about the secondary fuel filter? Did you change it?

Did you run this set BEFORE changing the filters, and it ran right? Or did you first change filters and then run it? Please take qa picture of E2 and post it, so we can see what version it is.

 

[TheAlfredo]

No idiot lights came on. I agree it is a fuel problem. I just not sure where in the fuel system. My fuel gage is making fullbut if I am correct in reading the diagrams,that float switch is different than the one that controls the aux pump and engine sensor. I tried grounding out the gage and it didn't move (99% sure it's a malfunctioning gage).

This afternoon I ran the gen for over an hour...hoping it just needed to be run. But it's RPM bounced as before. It ran until I turned it off. And then wouldn't restart.

��

 

[TheAlfredo]

I bought it with new fuel filters. The old were included. But seeing the milky oil and guessing they didn't put break in...I changed the oil and oil filter.

I drained the deisel snd added 5 fresh gallons. But the old diesel looked fine. Drained the water separator into a glass jar and saw no sign of moisture. Checked the other fuel filter and it was spotless.

Rookie question. What is "E2"?

 

[Guyfang]

Instead of grounding the M5, go to the -24 manual and find the test procedure and TEST it. PDF reader page 112. In any case, the M5 and MT5 have nothing to do with the problem. They simply tell you how much is in the tank, nothing more.

 

[Guyfang]

I bought it with new fuel filters. The old were included. But seeing the milky oil and guessing they didn't put break in...I changed the oil and oil filter.

I drained the deisel snd added 5 fresh gallons. But the old diesel looked fine. Drained the water separator into a glass jar and saw no sign of moisture. Checked the other fuel filter and it was spotless.

Rookie question. What is "E2"?

Your electric fuel pump.

Get into the books. Read the schematic and wire diagram. There is also a schematic and wire diagram on the doors. If for no other reason then to be familiar with terminology. When you use the proper names of things, you can not make a mistake.

There was a very first version of the E2 that was not a good product. it failed very often.

 

[TheAlfredo]

Grounding the senders terminal on the gage is the proper test procedure according to Beede. But as mentioned, it has no effect on the engine.

My next guess is to see if the fuel pump works works fine when warm. But I read it has two pumps and find it unlikely for both to fail. (Ironically I had a fuel pump fail in a light tower today). Or possibly disconnecting the hose going to the gen tank and pulling from my 5 gal filler tank.

Im not familiar with the injection system...but that is where I would put my money.

 

[TheAlfredo]

Heading home at the moment. I'll have my reading material for tonight. Thank you again

 

[Guyfang]

The E1 is an auxiliary electric fuel pump. It is ONLY used to draw fuel from a separate source of fuel, outside of the gen set. It pumps from an outside source, into the fuel tank. Nothing more. Read up about it in the manual. ONLY the E2 pump provides fuel to the engine.

This does not sound like an injection system problem.

Do you have another gen set, 802 or 803 available to you?

 

[TheAlfredo]

Yes I knew the about the aux pump and what it does. I must have misread somewhere that the 803 had 2 primary pumps (one as backup).

But I don't have another genset.

 

[TheAlfredo]

Guyfang here is the picture of the E2

 

[TheAlfredo]

Just throwing this out there....anyone think it could be one of the fuel metering-pump? being on the engine block they would be more susceptible to water seaping in from the exhaust and heat?...could one bind after warm up?

This is just a shot in the dark.

 

[Zed254]

You have the upgraded fuel pump. I would follow Jamawieb's advice and dive into that tank AGAIN. It sure sounds like the problem he describes.....something floating around the fuel system until picked up and plugs the system up. May also check fuel pump wiring...but this is from left field. Jiggle the wires around a bit when it's running to see if there's a bad connection under the wire insulation. Pull the pump electrical plug and reinsert. As I said from left field but I'm trying to think of something that would cycle the fuel pump from full on to partially off and back on. Wire would eventually fail, so high probability this is not the problem.

Check that pump is vibrating as normal during problem running: they sometimes fail....especially if jammed up with crud.

Keep us posted....

 

[TheAlfredo]

Had our Heavy Equipment diesel mechanic take a quick look at it today. He said in touching the fuel pump that it seemed warmer than it should (mind you he has never seen this exact pump) so I am not sure if it should be warm or not. I was thinking it would draw the fuel from my 5 gallon filler tank by disconnecting the hose on the pump and adding a hose into the my filler tank.

I could also just disconnect the other side of fuel pump instead and see how much it pumps, reconnect it to run the generator up to temperature and then disconnect the pump again to compare how it pumps cold and hot...? Its the only way I know how to know if it is pumping properly.

The other reason why I don't think it is something in the tank is because when it was running, my arms and hands are small enough that I could reach in the tank and feel the pickup/siphon pipe...and could feel there was nothing blocking it. Unless it is sucked into the pipe...and then released out of the pipe after it cools. But anything is possible. Looks like I have some work ahead of me on Monday. Going to be a long weekend giving plenty of thought to his issue.

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,

Have you replaced the fuel filters? spin-on water/fuel filter, and cartridge filter? Have you cleaned the inside of the fuel tank? Any crud floating around? Any sand?
After changing these filters, you might have to leave it on prime & run for a while to fill the new filters. (maybe 5 minutes) to be sure.

Change all fuel filters and then back to us.

Draining the filter means nothing with your issue.

Change both Spin-on water/fuel filter, and the cartridge fuel filter.

Prime a long time to fill them.

There is no reason for you to be looking for trouble shooting when you do not have a good baseline to build on.

 

[robson1015]

There may be something to the warm fuel pump. When they go bad they will work fine till they get hot, then they quit. Cool off and they work again till hot etc. etc.

 

[Zed254]

Alfredo said he (or someone else) changed out all the filters....although he did not complain about how hard that water separator is to get off.

Could a partially plugged fuel return line cause this problem? I ask because I was emptying an auxiliary fuel tank the other day and tried to pump it into the aux fuel connection on my 802A. Duh....it did not work because it was dead headed against the REAL aux fuel pump (generator was off). I tried this longer than I like to admit and finally noticed my pump getting a little warm. No fuel flow reduces cooling is what I figured and decided to stop that mistake and returned the discharge line back to my Jerry Can.

So with Alfredo's problem....could something be plugging up the fuel return line building back pressure in the system? Like a battery sitting on that long loose section at the generator end?

 

[Daybreak]

Alfredo said he changed out all the filters....although he did not complain about how hard that water separator is to get off.

Could a partially plugged fuel return line cause this problem? I ask because I was emptying an auxiliary fuel tank the other day and tried to pump it into the aux fuel connection on my 802A. Duh....it did not work because it was dead headed against the REAL aux fuel pump (generator was off). I tried this longer than I like to admit and finally noticed my pump getting a little warm. No fuel flow reduces cooling is what I figured and decided to stop that mistake and returned the discharge line back to my Jerry Can.

So with Alfredo's problem....could something be plugging up the fuel return line building back pressure in the system? Like a battery sitting on that long loose section at the generator end?

Howdy,
He stated he has only changed the oil filter. (filled with break-in oil)

This is a fuel issue.

Does he understand priming? Does he have a air leak? You need to start at the bottom and work your way to a baseline first.

cartridge filter needs changing.
spin-on water/fuel needs to be changed.

system needs to be primed.

If the unit really sucked some bad dirty fuel, then the barrel filter could be changed as well.
The small barrel filter. NSN 2910-01-553-6571 FILTER ELEMENT,FLUID (small barrel filter only) PART# 00-24000
Also known as Airtex G-17. Fuel Filter - 300 micron

 

[TheAlfredo]

Both fuel filters were changed when I took possession of the generator. The oil filter was new too. I changed the new oil filter because the oil was contaminated with water. But the diesel looked fine when I drained the diesel...put in a gallon or so...sloshed it around (using a forklift) and it came out clean...also felt around in the tank and it felt and looked clean. so I did not replace the fuel filters, I checked them. And yes I know how to prime the engine. I grew up around Diesel engines. The filters would not only have issues when the engine is at operating temp...that is another reason I ruled them out. Proven has to be related (imo) to heat...so I'm going to trouble check the pump.

Is the Aux pump the same as the primary?...can I swap them to troubleshoot?