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A good location for a Pyrometer Thermocouple?

OPCOM

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Re: RE: post turbo?

DrFoster said:
Note: guys that have put them in front on vehicles that are going to always be close to the max egt are going to eventually suck that probe into the turbo, unless you're VERY careful about the temps and ratios. That's why the after turbo is the best spot, or most popular spot, then simply add in 100 degrees to your data reading.
Pleas 'splain about sucking the probe into the turbo.. That does not sound good.
 

houdel

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RE: Re: RE: post turbo?

What Dr. Foster was saying is that if you are running near max EGT a lot you run the possibility of melting the end of the probe and having the turbo suck it up. Not good for the turbo!
 

ken

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Most probes are good for 2000 deg. If your egt is that hot. Then melting the probe is the least of your worries. Unless there is some cheap chinese probes running around out there.
 

houdel

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I don't know about most. ISSPRO sells 1600 and 2000 degree thermocouples. It doesn't seem that even a 1600 degree termocouple should have a problem. But I'll take Dr. Foster's word for it and stick to the 2000 degree thermocouple.
 
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post turbo

The only way to know the temp difference across the turbo on that setup is to actually measure it first.it's gonna be way more than a hundred degrees.you'll be surprised at how much the difference really is.you'll never know until you test.

Iv'e been warned over and over and over again that "the probe will melt,and kiss turbo goodbye...etc"
never seen it happen.not once.don't know anyone else who's seen it or has direct evidence that it has.The probes,even cheap ones,are usually made of 304 stainless or inconnel.if your running an EGT hot enough to destroy inconnel your turbo is already a puddle of goo.as well as your pistons.

someone,please,who has a turbo,try both spots so we know.then post results so pre-turbo types can be proven wrong.or right.or somewhere in the middle.i don't mind being proven wrong.i can take it.
 

DrFoster

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RE: post turbo

haha :) thanks for the flames
If you're interested, I've replaced 2 racing turbos from excessive runtimes at 1200 degrees with my friend's race car, logging dozens hours over it's life. Yep "logging". I'll go dig up the charts if anyone wants to see 1200 degrees for a solid hour pop a probe right off, when the datalogger carefully and diligently records the death of the engine over a few short seconds.

Can a diesel like one on a deuce run 1200 for over an hour? Sure it can.
Can the probe fail in less time? Yep.
Would it be smart to just probe the rear of the turbo and tune for full load at 1100 degrees. I'd say so - you'll have a lifetime of good engine left to use.

So let me expand on that a bit before I go to bed:
More boost does not = more power, more airflow does, however.
--Get a bigger turbo and get rid of the one that just runs high psi and high egt. Having a small turbo is like an asthmatic breathing through a straw; lots of effort, not a bit of power developed.
Low EGT is not safe without knowing your a/f
--Even diesels have them, but they are a tad more tricky, running sometimes 100:1 at idle, 23-30 part load, and stoic only under full load

Oh - what's stoic on a diesel?

CxHy + a(O2+0.79/0.21N2) => xCO2 + y/2H2O + a*0.79/0.21N2
where a=x+y/4 since a C can use up a whole O2 and an H can only use 1/4 of an O2. The 0.79 and 0.21 are the proportions of N2 and O2 in air.

If you take the formula for a hydrocarbon reacting with air you can easily work out how much of each is required.

molecular weight of O2 is 32 and N2 is 28.
Octane C8H18 has a=12.5 and molecular weight 114 ( 8 12's are 96 plus another 18).
Dodecane C12H26 has a=18.5 and molecular weight 170.

So if you crunch the numbers to get the AFR
AFR = a(MWO2+0.79/0.21*MWN2)/MWfuel
you get 15.06 for petrol and 14.95 diesel.

Since hydrocarbons are mainly H-C-H, two to one, and the odd hydrogens at the ends making the difference are light, all the hydrocarbons will have similar stoichiometric air fuel ratios, with the exception of the very light ones where the two extra hydrogen makes up a significant proportion of the weight. Take CH4, the H-C-H weighs 14 and the two H's weigh 2. That's a large portion compared to 2 in 114 or 2 in 170.

So AFR for methane calculates to 17.2 and Ethane to 16.1.
Then propane 15.6 and Butane 15.4. You can see the figures closing in on the figure 15 for petrol and diesel.

Now if you add oxygen things change drastically since oxygen in the fuel means you need less oxygen from the air. And since air is 4/5 nitrogen, if you can cut down on a certain amount of oxygen then you reduce the amount of air you need by a factor of about 5, (drop 4 N2s for each O2 dropped). So the AFR for a fuel like ethanol works out to be about 9.

Now if you say that US gasoline is like petrol but cut with about 5% ethanol you can calculate 5%*9 + 95%*15 = 0.45 + 14.25 = 14.7 and get anAFR for gasoline.

So providing the diesel is all hydrocarbon based the AFR will be around 15. Diesel of plant origin (biodiesel) has oxygen in it and the AFR will be lower and mixtures would be in between, in the same way that the AFR for gasoline is between that for petrol and ethanol, heavily weighted towards the petrol figure. I don't think the figures change much if you take air as being 78% Nitrogen and 1% Argon instead of 79% Nitrogen and as I said before, changing one heavy hydrocarbon for another won't make much difference, ie calculating diesel as a c0cktail of hydrocarbons would only complicate the calculations and not significantly change the result.

Ok, that's egt, probes breaking from stress, and how afr fits in - all in one post. Hope that helps someone!!!! :)
 

DrFoster

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RE: post turbo

Oh - and the big turbo thing - I had someone ask me about that a while back on here:

Imagine a straw pressurized to 5psi, and a garden hose sitting next to it pumped to the same pressure. Which one will hold more air? That's the garden hose, and that is best how to imagine why psi is not a good basis for estimations, there becomes a point when the straw can't flow more and it will just make hot little expanded air molecules and it can't mix with enough fuel to make more power. The garden hose (big turbo) has more room to move air, and holds more molecules at a lower psi - flows more and makes colder psi = more fuel in the air for more power.

Ok - that's all I got, NN all.


DAMN I'm way off topic! I guess that is what happens when I let my brain roam the forums... you'll get a filling of useless knowledge! :wink:
 
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