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A million questions to ask

GTO Tiger

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Port Huron, Michigan
My 17 year old son just bought a 1962 M51 5 ton dump with winch. The 5 ton rating is for hauling payload off road. On road payload rating is 10 tons. The truck weighs 23000 by itself. Max gross tow load is 30000 so it would not be able to pull the 45000 you are looking for. I believe the manual (don't have it with me right now) said max speed is 57 MPH. This truck has the 200hp Continental R6602 gas engine in it. Manual says 4 miles to the gallon. I saw a post by another M51 owner on this site say he could pull about 3 miles to the gallon with no load going down hill :grin: We have not driven it enough yet to get a feel for the mileage, but you can see it won't be much.

I don't remember the GAWR of the front axle but the tandems are rated as a pair at 44000.

The old truck has full hydraulic brakes (as opposed to air brakes) and we plan to license the M51 as Historic or Farm and neither require a CDL in Michigan.
 

grunex125

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Hey guys, I have to say thanks so far for your input, please keep it coming as I'm all ears. One thing however stands out and that is that there is a lot of talk about commercial uses, and leases. I should mention (and I'm sorry I didn't earlier) that my land clearing business deals mostly with farmers only. I do not work in urban settings and very rarely find myself hauling something to the landfill across town. I mostly need a truck for the time being that can tow me up to maybe ten miles from one job site to the next and most of the time when I move into an area I cannot seem to leave that area because everybody has got something. I don't know what it is but that Cat seems to be like a farmer magnet or something....lol. So basicly speaking I'm dealing with jealous local compettitors, who are jerking my chain when I need to move and also on site sometimes the travel distances from brush pile to burn pile or ditch is maybe a few hundred yards more than I can effectively haul by bucket loads. AS for customers not wanting to hear I'm waiting for a part because this is broke or that is broke, I think most of us farmers and etc will agree that there is a certain level of tolerance for such things because we've all dealt with it on an almost daily basis. At least that has been what my experience has been so far.
Civilian trucks I think in the tandem and triple axle size range can pose a whole set of problems all to their own. For example if you have a 20 foot bed and you have to back it to a ditch which causes it to lean a bit, that bed isn't going to straighten up as it gets lifted. the longer the bed, the more load, the higher you have to lift, and sometimes the hoists do not tilt far enough to get enough angle to free the material, IE pond silt and clay. for these reasons I feel that a short box, maybe smaller load sure, but safer in the end. Add to that 6by6 drive and you won't have situations as easily where drivers spin and suddenly catch and tear out the Differential.
 

sierra117

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Location
Isanti, MN
I have to agree with the civy trucks I am a tuck driver and I can say civy vehicles aint worth a darn off road they get stuck real easy
 

porkysplace

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mid- michigan
Keep in mind those same " jealous local compettitors " will be calling the D.O.T. every chance they get if your truck isn't 100% in compliance with D.O.T. regulations . It seems most motor carrier officers have a big chip on there shoulder to start with and don't like seeing any trucks over 10 years old on the road in a commercial setting.They will find something wrong with a 40 year old truck everytime they stop you .
 

jwaller

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your going to need a cdl no matter what truck you use if you are towing 35k lbs and that is far more than any mil truck can tow on it's pintle.

Can it do it on a private off-road job site, ya sure, can it do it legally on the road, No way!
 

grunex125

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well to me it is coming down to this I guess....... get the dump for the site work and get the cdl to be legal in driving it to the site. after that I think it will boil down to a commercial truck or larger military Tractor (semi) and bring it up to specs in order to pass MDOT. Looks like the road to bringing this business up to full steam just got a little longer.....
 

grunex125

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Keep in mind those same " jealous local compettitors " will be calling the D.O.T. every chance they get if your truck isn't 100% in compliance with D.O.T. regulations . It seems most motor carrier officers have a big chip on there shoulder to start with and don't like seeing any trucks over 10 years old on the road in a commercial setting.They will find something wrong with a 40 year old truck everytime they stop you .

Ya know the funny part about all this is the fact that I started in a business doing the Bull work, and to this day I'm doing nothing but the bull work, I'm not taking any prize jobs away from anyone. :confused: What I can' figure out is why they'd be jealous when they were all turning up their noses at the stuff I'm doing.

You're probably right though to cover my back first before some phone calls get made.
 

dozer1

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Sargeant, Minnesota
You're probably right though to cover my back first before some phone calls get made.

It's a good idea to be in compliance with your truck for that reason AND simply because your truck will be much safer and more reliable. You could get pulled over by the DOT for a random inspection and not because someone told on you. Better have her in compliance with an inspection sticker that is up to date. They will just say "have a nice day and drive safely" if you do.
 

Welder Sam

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I dont know how it is there, but here, if you are farm related, farm tagged, you dont get stopped, inspected, and no cdl is required. Not even if you weigh 100k+. If you farm in Arkansas they treat you as a god.


Im no god. I dont get any god-like treatment.
 
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3dAngus

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Perry, Ga.
Sorry, I had to. The point is, these are old trucks, sold at the end of their usefulness to the military. If the purchase price really reflected the "useful" value the price would be much higher, and the availability much lower.
Please don't take this the wrong way, as it is not argumentative. But this comment stood out.

As for the military, these trucks would last another 50 years. They are not useless. The way the military does it, they replace whatever needs replacing in the normal maintenance cycle. They could do this forever. If a fender rusts out, they could just replace it. Same with a motor, brakes, axle or anything else that comes along.

Yes, they are old, and any old machine, civilian or military is GOING to need some work regardless. But the REAL reason why the military is dumping them is because they have much better quality and modern replacements that are more accomodating for todays warfare, much more suitable for MRAP situations in the Middle East, where you can expect the same elsewhere in the world from now on. The machines need be heavier, with more armament, and more durable for desert to artic conditions, something for which the new design is more accomodating.

With all the new inventory, they no longer have room for the old, nor the financials to maintain both, when the money is going into new machines, which will require less maintenance up front.

Hope this helps. The machines are far from useless. If you don't believe me, look at Foreign Military Sales of these items to friends of Uncle Sam.

Mega$Bucks, if not in the machines alone, but in the parts count for logistical support.
 

Autocar

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Location
California
I think everyone is missing the point here. He needs something that will work on and off road that can't cost very much and can't lock him into payments. He just needs something short term until the economy turns around. The mil trucks are cheap and would fill the need except for possibly one thing: power. I had an M818 tractor with 250 HP Cummins pulling an M872 trailer and my halftrack(weight of the trailer and halftrack was 31K). The truck did not have enough power to get up to road speed. Governed speed of the tractor was 56 MPH and on level ground pulling the loaded trailer I could only get to 52. The slightest grade and I was dead-immediately dropped to 30-40 MPH. If you are on level ground and only going 10-20 miles on back roads you could probably get away with the rig.
 

Rustsleeps

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Northern WI
3dAngus, the military has the money to buy replacement vehicles, or they would not be "surplusing" these trucks on GL. He needs a work truck for a business. They are cool. They are a great hobby. I don't believe they can make him money, even if they cost less to aquire. What will his profit look like when he gets stopped by (at least in WI, we have CMV Inspectors with the State Partol) an inspector and they do a roadside vehicle inspection? I know two guys running well cared for older commercial trucks that have left that experience with close to two thousand dollars in citations for such things like brakes out of adjustment, in adequate safety equipment, cracked suspension components. These MV's were designed for the military and they don't have use for them anymore-just like you wrote-they have new equipment and do not need them-they are a cost liability, even to the military.

If I am in business, I need a truck that is there when I need it, that operates at the lowest cost per hour or mile. I need a truck that will not incur unexpected costs or liabilities such as DOT non-compliance or insurance (if I disclose the actual commercial use to the carrier-and if you don't, and have an accident, you will likely have zero coverage) premiums, or even higher fuel consumption at todays prices. Any commercial truck must be moving and working to make any money-the margins are tight enough if every thing goes right. That is why trucking companies buy or lease new trucks instead of keeping the older ones around forever-as they get older, they cost more to operate when compaired to a newer vehicle...any business needs to make money.
 

grunex125

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Minnesota City, MN
I sincerely hope that I have not misled anyone here, I had no intentions of trying to skirt around the laws, if the GVW of these vehicles is not enough to legally haul my load then I will simply have to find a truck to get the job done.

to address the issue of bringing a truck up to date, by law if that truck is compliant as of the date of manufacture then you are "grandfathered in" you just simply have to maintain it or if need be then one may have to add a few running lights, placards, or upgrading various add on components. From what I have been reading, I have found nothing illegal about running an old truck. My personal feeling on the matter is that if you are compliant, after your yearly inspections, and you maintain that vehicle to roadworthy operating standards, keep your log up to date, and and you are still getting pulled over for routine safety inspections, to what you feel is abnormal amount of inspections, then this is pure harrassment. legal or otherwise it is harrassment. This would seem to be especially so if this were to happen to me because I only have one DOT inspector assigned to our area.

An interesting point was brought up regarding farmers and cdl's. It is the same in MN. you do not need to have a cdl to drive for farm related purposes, so long as you are not transporting liquid of more than 150 gallons, and I think you cannot cross state lines, and a few other restrictions. The big exception to this rule is combination units which require a cdl no matter what. IE tractor and trailer. And yes the way I understand it I could technicly get a truck and drive it for "my own farm related purposes" but I'm thinking that in the long run would be counter productive due to the fact that as soon as I go to a site, I'd be in violation because the business is commercial even though I do agricultural clearing and I own my own farm. I'm not trying to bend the rules here or get into one of those shades of grey situations, I'm simply trying to figure out if these truck will do what I need them to do, and if not for one reason, will they still work for other aspects of my farm and business. so far I've ruled out trying to tow my Cat on a pintle hitch trailer behind anything like a five ton of some model, but I have not ruled out using a military truck (917 was mentioned earlier) and hooking it to a low boy and using that instead of buying civilian trucks.............this idea may change as I learn more about them, but for now I'm settling on the idea of a five ton for site work. As for getting the cat moved........well maybe i should ask if anyone knows of a fairly cheap semi and trailer?

Insurance I think may be something rather easily dealt with, onsite I need only my business liability insurance to cover damages to my own equipment or landowners' property.
I think I can work in such a fashion as to only insure one truck at a time. For instance if I buy a five ton I will need insurance to drive it to the site. Once the second truck is purchased that will be the one insured and I will haul the five ton to the site instead of driving it. Simple enough, tags and reg for one vehicle but I still have two vehicles at my disposal. The reality of my situation is that once on site I never move any debris off site and so never have to run on a road to get to a disposal point (burn pile, or ditch) but getting the Cat to the site is a problem and I hope to learn about some possibilities for Legal transport of that Cat.

Transportation of this Cat usually means moves of no more than 10 to 15 miles. At this point I would like to ask what model Military truck would get the job done? My max mileage in a year may only be about 2500 miles or so on this truck due to the short nature of the hauls that I have. Many times I'm only going a mile or two, but I move a lot. Last year my moving expenses averaged about 200 per drop charge, and the mileage was less than 900 miles. My total for the year was around 6,000-6250 for drop charges. I'm thinking that if I have to move further out to a job a time or two I can still hire a professional hauler or see about trucking with my competitors which I'm sure they'd be glad to do just see me gone a while. My main concern is these short expensive hauls. My customers are not at all happy with the charges and I think I can do a lot better. The Cdl will have to be obtained so all ideas here are welcome. (dumps, semi) (whatever model will tow legally, and whatever trailer will fit will be considered).

Thanks in advance
 

R Racing

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St. Leonard, MD
I believe I gave you the answer in the begining of the post. M917 400 HP Cummins big cam, 16 speed trans can haul 75K + and not even wimper. all wheel drive except for the floater axle. and a dump body for up to 20 yards of what ever you like to haul.you wont even know your Cat is back there.lol
 

Welder Sam

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Forgive my lack of model numbers here.. Gl should have macks, peterbilts, freightliners and various trailers that may or may not require mods come up from time to time that may serve your needs. As far as i can tell from reading the recovery threads, 90±% are pretty much junk that will require years and years along with many hundreds of thousands of dollars invested in a complete rebuild that is required before even thinking of putting these trucks on the road. I, however, could be mistadken in my interpretation of said threads. :beer:
 

grunex125

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Minnesota City, MN
3dAngus, the military has the money to buy replacement vehicles, or they would not be "surplusing" these trucks on GL. He needs a work truck for a business. They are cool. They are a great hobby. I don't believe they can make him money, even if they cost less to aquire. What will his profit look like when he gets stopped by (at least in WI, we have CMV Inspectors with the State Partol) an inspector and they do a roadside vehicle inspection? I know two guys running well cared for older commercial trucks that have left that experience with close to two thousand dollars in citations for such things like brakes out of adjustment, in adequate safety equipment, cracked suspension components. These MV's were designed for the military and they don't have use for them anymore-just like you wrote-they have new equipment and do not need them-they are a cost liability, even to the military.

If I am in business, I need a truck that is there when I need it, that operates at the lowest cost per hour or mile. I need a truck that will not incur unexpected costs or liabilities such as DOT non-compliance or insurance (if I disclose the actual commercial use to the carrier-and if you don't, and have an accident, you will likely have zero coverage) premiums, or even higher fuel consumption at todays prices. Any commercial truck must be moving and working to make any money-the margins are tight enough if every thing goes right. That is why trucking companies buy or lease new trucks instead of keeping the older ones around forever-as they get older, they cost more to operate when compaired to a newer vehicle...any business needs to make money.
Just to shed new light on the situation regarding efficiency, I'm not bidding the jobs, I work by the hr. Each piece of equipment is billed according to hrs. used. Of course I know that these trucks are not all that great on fuel consumption, but would that make much of a difference say for example on an 8 mile move?
Seems to me for example you could figure fuel consumption at 6 miles to the gallon, a move of 8 miles would use about 2 gallons but with the clock ticking at for example 85/hr. and time starts at the time you leave the driveway and end when the load is unloaded say 45 minutes later. that means you'd have a drop charge of $66.30 your fuel cost would be about 6 to 8 bucks, the rest would go to cover the cost of the insurance and maintenene. which may still leave a small red blemish in the profit and loss section of the books but if you were the customer which would you rather pay? 66.30 or 200+ ? Now putting myself in the seat of the customer and if i had to pay that 200 drop charge, wouldn't I think twice about hiring again? Sir, I mean no disrespect. I'm simply trying to explain the way I am thinking. I totally agree with you on MNDot, the fines could be potentially excessive. And the likely hood is there for sure. but this only for a few years until I can establish myself further without going bankrupt.

Something to weigh in the decision making process, I guess, and believe me I am all ears when it comes to listening to those here that have got more experience then I do. I just prefer to consider all options first before I leap.
 

grunex125

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Minnesota City, MN
grunex125

Have you made up your mind on what your going to do...? You have the best advise in the world to choose from.

Yes for part I would say. leaning towards the five ton for site work only, and MAY go civil on the truck that has to haul the cat to the sites, something like a Pete or a Mack but I have not ruled out military trucks for that purpose totally. I'm still diggin up information at a frenzied pace.
 

grunex125

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Minnesota City, MN
My Dad is a former Navy Seabee and believe me he taught me a lot about reuse and etc. but there is a time and place for reuse. A few have mentioned safety concerns here and I think that will be my number one consideration in selecting civilian or military trucks for on road trans port of the Cat. I'm not concerned about status, or how shiny the paint is. I want to find a good functioning, truck which will fit the bill for compliance and roadworthiness. Fuel consumption is not a real concern at this point as I can upgrade later, I'm only wanting to keep moving safely, and effectively, we'll work the details out later.
 
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