A2 (M1123) Cold Starting Trouble

[NormB]

Hokay...

That's 3 hours of my life I'll never get back.

I replaced the cold advance switch yesterday afternoon, engine blew white diesel smoke, cranked and cranked, but no start. Temp was about 40 degrees.

Well, I'd planned on replacing the glowplugs anyway, so that was today:

First 7 plugs came out no problem. Some were a little swollen, but no resistance at all coming out.
Resistance? I was going to replace them anyway, I didn't check with my VOM, but the new ones seemed to settle in at about 3 ohms before dropping to zero after a few seconds. Weird (heated nichrome passing electrons with less resistance, I guess).

I loosened them with a 1/4" ratchet and a 3/8 deep socket, then put the socket on this:

[h=1]Astro 1119 3/8-Inch Drive Mini Wobble Air Ratchet[/h]
which barely has enough torque to get out of its way at 120 psi but is SHORT enough to reach every plug and each of them came out one at a time from passenger rear forward, then driver rear forward. [I left the best for last]

I put new ones in with a generous coating of anti-seize, coated the connector with Deoxit, and that took about 45 minutes, maybe 50 for the first seven.

Then the last, under the alternator. Took a little extra torque to get it loose, then it backed out with the air ratchet until the threads were free. That's as far as it got. Took me almost two more hours to tease that plug out and I finally put a small vise-grip between the flats and the threads, THEN tapped in two large drifts (tapered, square bodies) between the vise-grip and engine to keep the torque in the axial plane and...

plug came out about another 1/8". Hmm.

Looking at it from the bottom, I could see where I could get a short crow-bar (Titanium... a gift from a friend, part of my Zombie apocalypse stash) up there between the vise-grip pliers and a pair of LONG needle nose pliers up against the head and I pried a little, got out from under the beast and twisted the plug a little, got under and pried a little and got all the threads/head portion free but the glow part was STUCK. Either this had to work somehow or I was going to have to pull the generator to get some access.

Muttering please God don't let this break under my breath I was relieved after a few minutes of tapping and prying and twisting that He didn't.

I finally got it out of the hole and it looked like this:


compared to one that was straighter.

Buttoned up the doghouse, counted tools and fingers, 45 degrees outside, turned the key and waited, the on.

VROOM!

Smoother and quieter than ever before. No smoke. Exhaust smells nicer now, too. Like the school buses that go through out neighborhood every school day.

Wow. It's going to get to the mid-twenties tonight, I'll head out around 7 AM and see if it cranks over like it did today. I think it will.

Now to replace the steering column tomorrow - should hit about 50 degrees tomorrow - and take it for a spin.

Thanks everybody for posting.

Norm

 

[MaverickH1]

Why are you replacing the steering column?

I'm glad to hear yours was as successful as mine was. It's interesting watching this work. Before I would get a wait light for at least 5 seconds every time I turned the key. With the new system, I illegally drove to the store and a little bit around the property. I started it initially and had to wait for the wait light, then drove to the general store. Since it had warmed up, when I went back to the truck to start it again the wait light didn't even come on. Then when I got it home I went inside for an hour or so. Came back out and when I turned the key still no wait light, but the temp gauge read 160 degrees still. Went down to my stream, turned it off again and played with the dogs, and of course when it started back up again no wait light again.

So with the new system, that's 4 starts with only one usage of the glow plugs. That's a huge increase in service life of the glow plugs by cycle numbers alone. However... it's also a significant increase in life because the plugs will be less likely to burn/swell/droop since they will only be used when it is "cold".

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

Why are you replacing the steering column?

I'm glad to hear yours was as successful as mine was. It's interesting watching this work. Before I would get a wait light for at least 5 seconds every time I turned the key. With the new system, I illegally drove to the store and a little bit around the property. I started it initially and had to wait for the wait light, then drove to the general store. Since it had warmed up, when I went back to the truck to start it again the wait light didn't even come on. Then when I got it home I went inside for an hour or so. Came back out and when I turned the key still no wait light, but the temp gauge read 160 degrees still. Went down to my stream, turned it off again and played with the dogs, and of course when it started back up again no wait light again.

So with the new system, that's 4 starts with only one usage of the glow plugs. That's a huge increase in service life of the glow plugs by cycle numbers alone. However... it's also a significant increase in life because the plugs will be less likely to burn/swell/droop since they will only be used when it is "cold".

Thats why the TSU is there guys. It tells the box that it needs or does not need glow plug power based on temp..120 IIRC.
The Older KDS EESS works the same way, but the yellow label Nartron does not for whatever reason, that one goes on every time regardless of eng temp. I own 6.2's in other vehicles and they work the same way...it's all about temp of the motor.

 

[MarkM]

I Have a 93 M998 with a 6.5L and am having the same cold start problems. Could someone tell me just where this cold start relay is located from the doghouse side? It takes about 8 tries to get this motor going and it's getting colder. and glow light is working. Lots of white smoke then after starting it's fine. Thanks for the help.

Mark

 

[NormB]

Well, it's like this...

Steering column was one of the originals with the little aluminum tabs that fit into slots. Over time those tabs and "hook" part of the slot broke off.

I'd posted a picture or two somewhere here months back and was told there WERE no slotted columns. I'll post a photo of mine, I just happened to find a picture of one in a TM yesterday, too.

So I'd ordered the thing, finally got a nice day and some time to replace it with a newest, bested, latest greatest iteration of some mechanical engineer's joke of a mounting solution. Also installed self-canceling turn signal unit and an Anderson power pole connector just above the slave port so's I can plug in a solargizer or other charger during down time. Fun times.

While I was underneath the dash, I also reattached the wiring harness to the frame above the brake light switch with the clamp that was designed to do this. It had worn through and was showing several red wires, one of which was just starting to show copper. Did some tricks with teflon tape, silicone and silicone tape and put that thing back where it belonged. That and two other edel-type clamps holding other miscellaneous wiring.

 

[Darwin T]

I am having the same issue. at around the Mid 40s my HMMWV is very cranky (well not Cranky) the glow plug light works fine and goes on and off, longer on when cold outside. so go with the glow plugs first? Where should I look for a S3 EESS?

 

[Darwin T]

PS: 6.5 Turbo

 

[NormB]

I am having the same issue. at around the Mid 40s my HMMWV is very cranky (well not Cranky) the glow plug light works fine and goes on and off, longer on when cold outside. so go with the glow plugs first? Where should I look for a S3 EESS?

A new set of glowplugs did the job for ME. Cranks FAST, but have only tested at 38 to 45 degrees F. Going to get a little colder this week and I'll see if the cold advance is working below 35 degrees.

So much information... I just saw an army cartoon to that effect "Your HMMWV doesn't get cold until 35 degrees" just blew ten minutes in my history trying to find the thing. (found it on my laptop computer, now posted above). I love the last line. Shouldn't take more than ten minutes to check my white irish - ahem...

I used THESE plugs: http://www.ebay.com/itm/152159142078

But am thinking of buying THESE for "just in case": http://www.accuratediesel.com/shop/115.html (also here: 270770159072 at the big auction site)[FONT=Verdana !important]

[/FONT]

 

[diesel dave]

Yes,check the glow plugs first. Very easy to do. These engines will become almost impossible to start if even 2 are bad.
when replacing,change all- not just the bad ones!

 

[NormB]

Yes,check the glow plugs first. Very easy to do. These engines will become almost impossible to start if even 2 are bad.
when replacing,change all- not just the bad ones!

Turns out BOTH the sellers I'd mentioned are selling Wellman plugs, which is what I installed, apparently (3HCM3 being WAP, LLC's MFR code), the "0.0000007% failure rate" line got my attention and it's exactly what all the other wellman sellers put on their webpages). From my photos, it looks like I REMOVED Wellman plugs (the 3HCM3 code being stamped on them).

Now I'm all kinds of paranoid. Wellmans=swellmans or so I can gather from reading the horror stories people have experienced with these plugs.

They're MILSPEC for crying out loud. Just how often does DoD recommend you change out plugs anyway? Or is it remove/inspect every 3,000 miles (or 250) to be on the safe side.

I've searched this forum (and the web a bit) looking for OTHER recommended plugs, AC 60Gs, but aren't those 12V for CUCVs? I went to the AC website, they don't list a plug for my humvee.

What's "the best" glowplug for an M998 HMMWV 6.2L NA engine?

I'll wait for the experts to chime in (or I'll say Glocks are better than Colts and really get things hopping).

opcorn:

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

I put in NOS glow plugs and have no issues...the part number is etched into the glow plug.
if your system is working correctly, you will have no issues with glow plugs....that's is why I stress replacing your EESS with an S3, new plugs etc....folks have no problem dropping 8-?k on a truck, but then want to get cheap when it comes to doing what's right to make it run right.

 

[NormB]

I put in NOS glow plugs and have no issues...the part number is etched into the glow plug.
if your system is working correctly, you will have no issues with glow plugs....that's is why I stress replacing your EESS with an S3, new plugs etc....folks have no problem dropping 8-?k on a truck, but then want to get cheap when it comes to doing what's right to make it run right.

I've been following your posts with much interest and have a great respect for your knowledge and experience.

If I'm reading THIS post correctly, can I assume you mean to say glow plugs don't matter AND the S3 box is the main element in the problem a lot of us are having with these trucks and cold weather starting?

So, let's say I JUST replaced the glowplugs and the wait light goes on and off like it should and the machine fires up in about a quarter second, you still recommend replacing the (Nartron EESS) box with an S3 (with the unused port in front) box and temp. sender?

Does this really save glowplugs from melting/bending/breaking?

Thanks in advance.

Norm

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

I've been following your posts with much interest and have a great respect for your knowledge and experience.

If I'm reading THIS post correctly, can I assume you mean to say glow plugs don't matter AND the S3 box is the main element in the problem a lot of us are having with these trucks and cold weather starting?

So, let's say I JUST replaced the glowplugs and the wait light goes on and off like it should and the machine fires up in about a quarter second, you still recommend replacing the (Nartron EESS) box with an S3 (with the unused port in front) box and temp. sender?

Does this really save glowplugs from melting/bending/breaking?

Thanks in advance.

Norm

the S3 fixed a lot of issues, the one main issue I think is paramount is that it is ground fault tolerant.
i think today that most if not all GP's are "non swelling" from my research.
thtat doesent meAn there won't be splatter, just not swollen and split plugs.

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

S3 Enhancements over the EESS
A backwards compatible design with improvements for known fieldissues:

Elimination of pulsing headlamps and voltmeter gauges.
Immunity to glow plug re-activation when horn is used.
Provides for lower current starter switch as well as starter lockout while engine is running.
Does not flash the wait-to-start lamp during default mode operation to avoid operator confusion.
Operates with same temperature sensor as used for the EESS.
Immunity to relay icing.
Improved glow plug tip temperature control.
Vehicle ground fault tolerant.
Newly developed sealing system to meet stricter requirements.
Meets more severe EMI requirements.
Over current protection added for the wait-to-start and brake warning lamp circuits.
Withstands ESD for packaging and handling classification test of SAE J1113-13 to +25kV.
Uses chemical agent resistant coating (CARC).
Diagnostics through SAE J1939 compliant data bus.
Compatible with other SAE J1939 components.
Monitors and records unit parameters as an additional aid for system troubleshooting.
Electrical serialization providing for lot traceability.
Field reprogrammable to meet future enhancements and upgrades utilizing existing equipment.
Field useable application for Maintenance Support Device (MSD) is available for the S3 and vehicle diagnostics.


S3 Diagnostic Capabilities

The S3 has the capability to monitor the following fault conditions and report them over a J1939 CAN bus:

System voltage too high for operation.
System voltage too low for operation.
Glow plugs not connected / open.
Glow plugs shorted.
Glow plug driver failure.
Temperature probe fault high or low.
Glow Plug Controller used in place of Temperature Probe.
Wait-to-start lamp over current.
Brake lamp over current.
Relay fault.
Gate voltage too low.

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

S3 EESSNSN 6110-01-542-7901KDS part # CR-2701KASCAR has them instock on their website. Sounds like they have fixed alot of problems with this latest round.S3 Enhancements over the EESSA backwards compatible design with improvements for known fieldissues:Elimination of pulsing headlamps and voltmeter gauges.Immunity to glow plug re-activation when horn is used.Provides for lower current starter switch as well as starter lockout while engine is running.Does not flash the wait-to-start lamp during default mode operation to avoid operator confusion.Operates with same temperature sensor as used for the EESS.Immunity to relay icing.Improved glow plug tip temperature control.Vehicle ground fault tolerant.Newly developed sealing system to meet stricter requirements. Meets more severe EMI requirements.Over current protection added for the wait-to-start and brake warning lamp circuits.Withstands ESD for packaging and handling classification test of SAE J1113-13 to +25kV.Uses chemical agent resistant coating (CARC).Diagnostics through SAE J1939 compliant data bus.Compatible with other SAE J1939 components.Monitors and records unit parameters as an additional aid for system troubleshooting.Electrical serialization providing for lot traceability.Field reprogrammable to meet future enhancements and upgrades utilizing existing equipment.Field useable application for Maintenance Support Device (MSD) is available for the S3 and vehicle diagnostics.S3 Diagnostic CapabilitiesThe S3 has the capability to monitor the following fault conditions and report them over a J1939 CAN bus:System voltage too high for operation.System voltage too low for operation. Glow plugs not connected / open.Glow plugs shorted.Glow plug driver failure.Temperature probe fault high or low.Glow Plug Controller used in place of Temperature Probe.Wait-to-start lamp over current.Brake lamp over current.Relay fault.Gate voltage too low.

 

[MaverickH1]

The glow plugs I removed from my system look exactly like the "non-swelling" Swellman's that I bought. They even have the same numbers on them. They were swollen, drooping, and had burn outs.

Whether that is due to improper starting procedures or the Nartron EESS, I can't say. But I did replace it with the S3 per Retired's suggestion. I can guarantee that the S3 will increase the life of your glow plugs, without a doubt. The question of "why" and "how much" I can't completely answer. But if your engine is already 220 degrees F and you shut it off to fuel up and restart it again, the EESS is going to cycle your glow plugs again. This will overheat them. This is a prime condition for swelling, blowouts, and drooping. The S3 will not use them if you are above 125 degrees F.

That said, I was surprised mine were in such poor shape. My M1123 is supposedly a 2005, it had a rebuild in 2009, I have maintenance records from 2010 and 2011 that look to me like it was removed from service in 2011. The odometer says 81 miles. It looks like it's still nearly a brand new truck except for holes all over the place. Almost every glow plug was in bad shape. It makes me worried for service life. I wish the Humvee had a "number of starts" counter as well as an engine hours meter in addition to the odometer.

 

[MaverickH1]

Updating both threads:

Every single glow plug from this truck failed the continuity tests. Completely open circuit on every one of them. I thought I was testing them incorrectly until I went and got the other 8 new plugs (I bought 16 new ones to have more on hand) and they tested perfectly.