- 1,925
- 30
- 48
- Location
- Irmo, South Carolina
Gerhard, regarding the mounting of the pump, is that front bearing section with the yoke a purchased item or did you assemble it?
Rick
Rick
-
Steel Soldiers now has a few new forums, read more about it at: New Munitions Forums!
Adding multipurpose hydraulics to the deuce
- Thread starter rchalmers3
- Start date
- 6,984
- 2,520
- 113
- Location
- Montevideo/Uruguay
That is just home-brewed - typically from left-over pieces laying around.
Mounting bracket & flange; coupler shaft w/ bearing and seal; the correct size yoke; plus shear pin protection - all in one... way too specific to find it "made"!
G.
Attachments
![Pump, hydraulic 005 [HDTV (720)].jpg](/data/attachments/260/260379-2cc3470301766cd570c5358d94f22b47.jpg)
![Pump, hydraulic 011 [HDTV (720)].jpg](/data/attachments/260/260380-3fa7199db3676f81cdf415e850e0646b.jpg)
Last edited:
Vintage iron
Active member
- 1,123
- 16
- 38
- Location
- Falmouth Ma.
subscribed
Heath_h49008
New member
- 1,557
- 102
- 0
- Location
- Kalamazoo/Mich
I had to bump this for some of the new guys.
The thought of doing a Unimog front or Ford 3 point rear tractor attachment plate sounds so darn interesting. One good sized pump and a PTO/Hydraulic PTO simulator, out each end seems like something one of you guys would have done by now.
The thought of doing a Unimog front or Ford 3 point rear tractor attachment plate sounds so darn interesting. One good sized pump and a PTO/Hydraulic PTO simulator, out each end seems like something one of you guys would have done by now.
cummins67
New member
- 3
- 0
- 0
- Location
- Wentworth, MO
U should be able to add ur pump to the side or bottom of the transmission ?
jesusgatos
Active member
- 2,689
- 28
- 38
- Location
- on the road - in CA right now
Let's get into it. Designing a new workbed for mah deuce and plans include adding a transfercase PTO-driven hydraulic pump (in addition to the 5-ton multifuel pump on the engine), along with a 12KW pto-driven generator out of an M1031. Might as well start thinking about implement attachment points, as those kind of things might affect the way I deisng/build the bed and bumpers. Donut know much at all about this stuff, so would appreciate any insight into what I ought to be thinking about when it comes to this kind of stuff. Thanks.
- 1,925
- 30
- 48
- Location
- Irmo, South Carolina
Wow, a hydraulically driven PTO simulator! I had no idea those even existed! I have to agree that a 3 point system is a really valuable piece on a work truck. Especially on a winch truck. I have seen videos of Unimogs winching enormous logs out of the woods using a winch and a blade that is lowered into the ground to prevent the truck from dragging. There is no reason to leave the deuce out of this type of utility!
As an update to this thread, Matt (vintageiron) has my truck, a transfer case PTO, a K-boom and some other bits for installing the wet kit and K-boom. Matt has suggested, and I accept the idea of mounting the K-boom inside the bed, modifying the bed as needed for operating the K-boom and outriggers. This will leave the bed both full length as well as fairly usable. He had some really intelligent solutions for the logistics of relocating the fuel tank by eliminating the driver side step box and installing a road truck step tank. He suggested mounting the spare in the bed (K-boom as a davit!) and eliminating the tool rack so that the outriggers have clear space.
I cannot promise anything, but hopefully Matt will post progress photos later on after his vacation and whenever his schedule permits. I am in no rush for the work to be finished and have authorized Matt to use my work as fill in for slow periods.
Rick
As an update to this thread, Matt (vintageiron) has my truck, a transfer case PTO, a K-boom and some other bits for installing the wet kit and K-boom. Matt has suggested, and I accept the idea of mounting the K-boom inside the bed, modifying the bed as needed for operating the K-boom and outriggers. This will leave the bed both full length as well as fairly usable. He had some really intelligent solutions for the logistics of relocating the fuel tank by eliminating the driver side step box and installing a road truck step tank. He suggested mounting the spare in the bed (K-boom as a davit!) and eliminating the tool rack so that the outriggers have clear space.
I cannot promise anything, but hopefully Matt will post progress photos later on after his vacation and whenever his schedule permits. I am in no rush for the work to be finished and have authorized Matt to use my work as fill in for slow periods.
Rick
Last edited:
Heath_h49008
New member
- 1,557
- 102
- 0
- Location
- Kalamazoo/Mich
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not about the PTO simulator, but just in case you're serious and haven't seen one...
http://www.donallisonequipment.com/BushMaster_Ag101.asp
I figure you would need to build one plate mount for the front and one for the back. Make them detachable with the motor where the PTO is supposed to be and the basic mounts for either the 'Mog, skidloader, or 3 point Ford Tractor. Power them all with a single fairly large hydraulic pump/wet kit and you would be able to run 90% of the mid-sized attachments in the world. If I remember the wiser folks designs in this thread, you would also need to be a bit creative in your planning for the control valves. (Open center design IIRC)
Last edited:
- 1,925
- 30
- 48
- Location
- Irmo, South Carolina
While I am a scarcastic SOB most all the time, my surprise and delight to learn about a PTO simulator is genuine.
One thing on my mind at the moment is that the Unimog has a distinct advantage in visibility from the driver seat for manipulating a front end implement. I doubt the deuce could be nearly as effective, but then I have zero experience in running tractors. At the rear I expect the visibility is about equal. This detail might be considered for design purposes.
Rick
One thing on my mind at the moment is that the Unimog has a distinct advantage in visibility from the driver seat for manipulating a front end implement. I doubt the deuce could be nearly as effective, but then I have zero experience in running tractors. At the rear I expect the visibility is about equal. This detail might be considered for design purposes.
Rick
- 1,579
- 542
- 113
- Location
- Greenback, TN
You can probably tell from my list below that I am rather prejudiced toward Unimogs 
As versatile as they are, they still have simple hydraulics that can be copied/emulated.
I think the original poster had in mind a simple system, and the 'high capacity' system of the Case MB-4/94 406 unit is a very simple example. It's a tranny driven, high speed (well above PTO speed) pump, reservoir in which the filters reside, an over-pressure pop-off valve (bypasses pump output to tank), and two hoses with quick-connects. No spools, valves, gauges, or anything else. The QC's close when disconnected. PTO is manually controlled on/off and the noise of the over-pressure valve is a quick reminder to not deadhead the system. Can't get easier and simpler than that.
Some of the desired 'utensils' mentioned by the OP, like chain saw, runs great off this system at idle yet there's capacity to run a loader, backhoe, crane, whatever.
Note that there being no spools in the hi-cap truck system is not a problem because most anything added (backhoe, saw, impact, breaker) all have their own control valves (open center required). Some things would need spools, like loader and winch (but the Unimog has a separate hydraulic system for that). I used a hydraulic chain saw to chop up a log left behind after tree cutting in a national park, a couple of weeks ago. The only noise was the engine idling and the rasp of the chain cutting. If you have never used a hydraulic chain saw you are in for a treat.
Just more ideas thrown toward an old thread. I think a simple hydraulic system on a Deuce or 5-ton would be very useful. One of the first projects I'd make for it would be a hydraulic jack.
Bob
As versatile as they are, they still have simple hydraulics that can be copied/emulated. I think the original poster had in mind a simple system, and the 'high capacity' system of the Case MB-4/94 406 unit is a very simple example. It's a tranny driven, high speed (well above PTO speed) pump, reservoir in which the filters reside, an over-pressure pop-off valve (bypasses pump output to tank), and two hoses with quick-connects. No spools, valves, gauges, or anything else. The QC's close when disconnected. PTO is manually controlled on/off and the noise of the over-pressure valve is a quick reminder to not deadhead the system. Can't get easier and simpler than that.
Some of the desired 'utensils' mentioned by the OP, like chain saw, runs great off this system at idle yet there's capacity to run a loader, backhoe, crane, whatever.
Note that there being no spools in the hi-cap truck system is not a problem because most anything added (backhoe, saw, impact, breaker) all have their own control valves (open center required). Some things would need spools, like loader and winch (but the Unimog has a separate hydraulic system for that). I used a hydraulic chain saw to chop up a log left behind after tree cutting in a national park, a couple of weeks ago. The only noise was the engine idling and the rasp of the chain cutting. If you have never used a hydraulic chain saw you are in for a treat.
Just more ideas thrown toward an old thread. I think a simple hydraulic system on a Deuce or 5-ton would be very useful. One of the first projects I'd make for it would be a hydraulic jack.
Bob
Should you want to explore closed center and variable displacement, pressure or flow compensated pumps, I design and build sawmill systems that use them... integrated with Siemens PLC's (or manual buttons) controlling the valves. It's all 24 vdc, so will work with the truck electrics.
For multiple movements at the same time, you will need closed center OR multiple (stacked) pump that gives multiple flows.
Or you can make a gear pump (which pumps flow continuously) think that it is a variable displacement (on, off or a flow restricted path) pump by providing a dump valve that is electrically operated to close any time any other valve (electric) is operated. It takes a 24 vdc relay but will work.
For serious power, like I made a large bandsaw with wheel motor driving it, it took 70 gpm max. For that kind of power you need to come direct from the engine. On my 923, I'm looking at a radiator and hood mount problem for coming off straight in line with the crank.
For multiple outlets, simply T them. Connecting to the "quick connect" opens that circuit to whatever tool/cylinder/motor is in use. You can even make the tool have it's own valving that works simultaneously with the vehicle mounted dump valve (requires electrical connection).
Note on using stack valves in open center. While they will work, if you don't get sizes right, they will restrict the flow enough to cause fluid heating. As a general rule, if you have flow and are going from high pressure to lower pressure, without doing work, you are building in a fluid heat source.
Should you want to use proportional devices with stack valves, the valve and electronic drivers can get expensive...so manual will be your economical choice to have "feel".
For multiple movements at the same time, you will need closed center OR multiple (stacked) pump that gives multiple flows.
Or you can make a gear pump (which pumps flow continuously) think that it is a variable displacement (on, off or a flow restricted path) pump by providing a dump valve that is electrically operated to close any time any other valve (electric) is operated. It takes a 24 vdc relay but will work.
For serious power, like I made a large bandsaw with wheel motor driving it, it took 70 gpm max. For that kind of power you need to come direct from the engine. On my 923, I'm looking at a radiator and hood mount problem for coming off straight in line with the crank.
For multiple outlets, simply T them. Connecting to the "quick connect" opens that circuit to whatever tool/cylinder/motor is in use. You can even make the tool have it's own valving that works simultaneously with the vehicle mounted dump valve (requires electrical connection).
Note on using stack valves in open center. While they will work, if you don't get sizes right, they will restrict the flow enough to cause fluid heating. As a general rule, if you have flow and are going from high pressure to lower pressure, without doing work, you are building in a fluid heat source.
Should you want to use proportional devices with stack valves, the valve and electronic drivers can get expensive...so manual will be your economical choice to have "feel".
jesusgatos
Active member
- 2,689
- 28
- 38
- Location
- on the road - in CA right now
Not sure I understand. What's going on here?
The link takes me to a specific piece of equipment.
If the original poster wants to continue, I hope he has a few specific needs identified. The idea to make it Unimog like sounds good, but could be very costly with a variable displacement pump and well engineered distribution/valves that work for multiple purposes.
If the original poster wants to continue, I hope he has a few specific needs identified. The idea to make it Unimog like sounds good, but could be very costly with a variable displacement pump and well engineered distribution/valves that work for multiple purposes.
- 9,580
- 218
- 63
- Location
- Dickson,TN
That's going to be the problem on all but stationary equipment. On a tractor you have a pretty good view of the 3-point equipment. I'd suspect you'd have a heck of a time even hooking up a implement without some help. It would be almost impossible to use something like a 3-point grader blade.
Personally, I'd stay away from closed center systems. They cost considerably more than a open center system and there's really no need for it.
M16ty, I would agree with you if I did not work with multiple moves at once. For example an articulated arm with a hydraulic chain saw at the end. Or a firewood cutter with in-feed, clamp, saw, perhaps a splitter and out-feed conveyor. I can think of other applications that use the power of these great machines in very sophisticated special equipment for forestry and farming. Some may resemble stationary machines. The problem I see is not coming straight off of the crank, thus limited in size coming from the PTO. Think how much HP is available but going un-tapped.
I watch for used Vickers, Rexroth and a few other makes of pumps (swashplate piston type) and valves (open and closed center) in bone-yards, internet, etc., (and have a decent inventory for prototypes) so can keep cost of variable displacement at low $$$. I'm amazed what people throw away.
But you are right about the average person going and paying retail price... for a hobby.
I watch for used Vickers, Rexroth and a few other makes of pumps (swashplate piston type) and valves (open and closed center) in bone-yards, internet, etc., (and have a decent inventory for prototypes) so can keep cost of variable displacement at low $$$. I'm amazed what people throw away.
But you are right about the average person going and paying retail price... for a hobby.
jesusgatos
Active member
- 2,689
- 28
- 38
- Location
- on the road - in CA right now
Why is running a pump off the transfer-case PTO a limiting factor?
As an estimate only, I would guess that one can get around 15-20 horsepower out of a PTO without stressing parts too bad. I think the output shaft is about 1 1/8", which is about a 10 hp electric motor size. Look at the gears driving it...they are not very large.
The NHC 250 or 8.3T is about 240 hp (don't know the deuce hp but assume it's 150 or so). The engine hp may then be many times what can be made available at a PTO.
In the case of my bandsaw at 70 gpm max, I could stall out a Cummins 4b on low (1800) speed but at 2200 had full 70 hp available and could power through some tough, wide cuts in white oak (it was just barely powerful enough). In that application I used a large pump for the saw and a second pump mounted on the back of it for all the auxiliary functions. It used every bit of 70 hp and could use more.
Get this... on the saw I did not use a valve (except pilot check for stopping) but instead controlled speed of the saw by stroking the pump from zero flow to a preset (flow) aka speed. That way is really efficient and little heat is made, yet a serious amount of power is transferred simply by stroking the pump. It's a hydrostatic drive, but for saw machinery (and I had no large valve to purchase). HP transferred per $$$ spent, I would put that system up to any.
I'm not trying to say that many pieces of machinery are not perfectly suited to a PTO... but that we are only getting a small fraction of what the engines are capable of by limiting ourselves to a PTO and gear pump. I may be the only person that wants to use my truck as a power source for that type of equipment, so my comments may not apply widely to Rchalmer's and most others need.
The NHC 250 or 8.3T is about 240 hp (don't know the deuce hp but assume it's 150 or so). The engine hp may then be many times what can be made available at a PTO.
In the case of my bandsaw at 70 gpm max, I could stall out a Cummins 4b on low (1800) speed but at 2200 had full 70 hp available and could power through some tough, wide cuts in white oak (it was just barely powerful enough). In that application I used a large pump for the saw and a second pump mounted on the back of it for all the auxiliary functions. It used every bit of 70 hp and could use more.
Get this... on the saw I did not use a valve (except pilot check for stopping) but instead controlled speed of the saw by stroking the pump from zero flow to a preset (flow) aka speed. That way is really efficient and little heat is made, yet a serious amount of power is transferred simply by stroking the pump. It's a hydrostatic drive, but for saw machinery (and I had no large valve to purchase). HP transferred per $$$ spent, I would put that system up to any.
I'm not trying to say that many pieces of machinery are not perfectly suited to a PTO... but that we are only getting a small fraction of what the engines are capable of by limiting ourselves to a PTO and gear pump. I may be the only person that wants to use my truck as a power source for that type of equipment, so my comments may not apply widely to Rchalmer's and most others need.
jesusgatos
Active member
- 2,689
- 28
- 38
- Location
- on the road - in CA right now
Oh, okay. Thanks for explaining. There's probably some information out there somewhere about the transfercase PTO's rated power output, right? Would be good to know so can source appropriately sized components. Would like to make the hydraulic system as powerful/versatile as possible, something similar to what you're describing. Would be awesome if it could power saws and things like that.
- 9,580
- 218
- 63
- Location
- Dickson,TN
I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that the deuce is rated for full engine hp off the t-case PTO. I don't know about the 5-tons.
Toby, It just depends on how complicated and "bells and whistles" you want. You are right that while a closed center system is a lot more complicated (and usually expensive) to set up, adding stuff later is easier.
Toby, It just depends on how complicated and "bells and whistles" you want. You are right that while a closed center system is a lot more complicated (and usually expensive) to set up, adding stuff later is easier.
If jesusgatos were closer, I could help him out. I have 3 Sunstrand hydrostat pumps with auxiliary on the back and a couple Rexroth with double variable pumps that would be very handy for almost anything, even reversed flow (thus hydrostat).
If full hp is possible from the front, that may make the deuce a better power source than the 939 series. Using the transfer case for a direct drive turns the tranny and some gears, but is probably the next best alternative on the 939 series. I think the wrecker crane trucks have a transfer case driven pump so as to get more power/flow than a PTO.
While I can handle a front/direct mounted pump taking about four rows from the radiator, the hood mount and spring complicate bringing a drive out the front of the 923...or I would have it done already. Oh well.
Edit..Oh yea, one of the best shots of a new PTO for the 5 ton with Alison is at C&C Equipment website. The PTO to tranny gear that drives it is a straight gear, about 3/4" wide. I would not trust that for more than about 20 hp but would ask Chelsea to confirm.
If full hp is possible from the front, that may make the deuce a better power source than the 939 series. Using the transfer case for a direct drive turns the tranny and some gears, but is probably the next best alternative on the 939 series. I think the wrecker crane trucks have a transfer case driven pump so as to get more power/flow than a PTO.
While I can handle a front/direct mounted pump taking about four rows from the radiator, the hood mount and spring complicate bringing a drive out the front of the 923...or I would have it done already. Oh well.
Edit..Oh yea, one of the best shots of a new PTO for the 5 ton with Alison is at C&C Equipment website. The PTO to tranny gear that drives it is a straight gear, about 3/4" wide. I would not trust that for more than about 20 hp but would ask Chelsea to confirm.
Last edited: