All Military Vehicles banned from road in Maryland

[tstone]

Maryland tagged my M813, M543A2 and M931 under gross vehicle weight as N/A. I've had CDLs since there were CDLs, but the truck is non -commercial and tagged historic and 2 are tagged antique.

I have several 2 1/2 Ton and 5 Ton vehicles tagged "Historic" which I use in compliance with MD law.;M35, M816, M818 and 817. I use them for shows, parades, outreach programs for ministry and for pleasure. The concern that I have after reading all of this is; are we subject to not having our registrations renewed based on this new legislation?

I have seen all of the comments about living in Maryland. Most of who live here have grown up here and are embedded in our communities and would find it difficult to leave financially and because of our long term engagement in our communities. It would be a whole lot easier to move on and not have to deal with MD politics, but for now, me and my family will stay put, vote and try to stand up for the things that are important to us including our MV hobby, 2nd amendment rights and other causes worth preserving for our future generations.

Thanks to all of you who are actively involved in helping to preserve our rights to own, restore, operate and enjoy the hobby of preserving these landmark vehicles which have tremendous value as part of our American history and honors all of those who have operated them under service to our great nation. Thats why I am in the hobby.

 

[Ajax MD]

@tstone

You've hit a few nails on their respective heads:

1. Will the MSP use this as an opportunity to confiscate Historic tags? I think it's likely.

2. The trampling of rights is spreading and running from state to state searching for the "most free" state isn't going to work forever. Texas is purple and Virginia is now blue. This would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.

3. Probably most important- You used the word "legislation." So far, all we have is a bulletin from the ASED. That's not legislation. Is there legislation? We don't really know yet. It seems that the MSP is simply twisting words and existing Federal safety and emissions regulations to justify the denial of safety inspections for former military vehicles.

This power grab by the MSP is probably due to the whole HMMWV "offroad use only" designator on the SF-97's and now ALL former MV's are getting caught in the back-splatter. To my knowledge, all of you who purchased M35's, M809's and M939's never had the "offroad use only" designator on your SF-97's so the language in the bulletin is patently false.

What are you all planning to do about the big, annual Aberdeen MV show and rally? Just give it up?

If we let this "bulletin" metastasize into actual legislation, you can bet that Maryland will essentially be a black hole for MV's. No one here will buy them. There will be no rallies or shows, no market for parts, no more parades, etc.

4. A final thought for today- In Maryland, MV's have always occupied sort of a "gray area." Unscrupulous owners have leveraged this to use MVs with Historic tags as working vehicles (tractors operating commercially, snow plows, etc). This does not help our case. Our best way forward, may be to lobby for a special class of registration with common sense restrictions that will convince legislators to buy into.

That means that we will not have totally unrestricted use of MV's. No more commercial hauling or snow plowing with Historic tags (which is illegal anyway) but at least we will have clear laws that the MSP cannot trample whenever it's convenient for them.

 

[tstone]

@tstone

You've hit a few nails on their respective heads:

1. Will the MSP use this as an opportunity to confiscate Historic tags? I think it's likely.

2. The trampling of rights is spreading and running from state to state searching for the "most free" state isn't going to work forever. Texas is purple and Virginia is now blue. This would have been unthinkable just a few years ago.

3. Probably most important- You used the word "legislation." So far, all we have is a bulletin from the ASED. That's not legislation. Is there legislation? We don't really know yet. It seems that the MSP is simply twisting words and existing Federal safety and emissions regulations to justify the denial of safety inspections for former military vehicles.

This power grab by the MSP is probably due to the whole HMMWV "offroad use only" designator on the SF-97's and now ALL former MV's are getting caught in the back-splatter. To my knowledge, all of you who purchased M35's, M809's and M939's never had the "offroad use only" designator on your SF-97's so the language in the bulletin is patently false.

What are you all planning to do about the big, annual Aberdeen MV show and rally? Just give it up?

If we let this "bulletin" metastasize into actual legislation, you can bet that Maryland will essentially be a black hole for MV's. No one here will buy them. There will be no rallies or shows, no market for parts, no more parades, etc.

4. A final thought for today- In Maryland, MV's have always occupied sort of a "gray area." Unscrupulous owners have leveraged this to use MVs with Historic tags as working vehicles (tractors operating commercially, snow plows, etc). This does not help our case. Our best way forward, may be to lobby for a special class of registration with common sense restrictions that will convince legislators to buy into.

That means that we will not have totally unrestricted use of MV's. No more commercial hauling or snow plowing with Historic tags (which is illegal anyway) but at least we will have clear laws that the MSP cannot trample whenever it's convenient for them.

You make some very valid and concerning points.

The Aberdeen show will probably continue for now, as you stated that there is actually no legislation (yet) that may restrict current registered vehicles, but in time our rights to operate these vehicles on the road may be challenged. There are many MVPA vehicle owners in MD including myself; I would expect them to be involved in some way.

If an effort is made to forward new legislation that would help protect our hobby, ( preserving American history) I would be glad to help.

 

[BKubu]

Does anyone in MD know of any potentially sympathetic state legislators? It would be helpful if we could get out in front of this as opposed to reacting to an unfavorable bill.

 

[F18hornetM]

I have several 2 1/2 Ton and 5 Ton vehicles tagged "Historic" which I use in compliance with MD law.;M35, M816, M818 and 817. I use them for shows, parades, outreach programs for ministry and for pleasure. The concern that I have after reading all of this is; are we subject to not having our registrations renewed based on this new legislation?

I have seen all of the comments about living in Maryland. Most of who live here have grown up here and are embedded in our communities and would find it difficult to leave financially and because of our long term engagement in our communities. It would be a whole lot easier to move on and not have to deal with MD politics, but for now, me and my family will stay put, vote and try to stand up for the things that are important to us including our MV hobby, 2nd amendment rights and other causes worth preserving for our future generations.

Thanks to all of you who are actively involved in helping to preserve our rights to own, restore, operate and enjoy the hobby of preserving these landmark vehicles which have tremendous value as part of our American history and honors all of those who have operated them under service to our great nation. Thats why I am in the hobby.

I agree with you about leaving is not an option, so really an easy way to answer the problem if you have nothing invested here. Maryland is great state for a lot of reasons. Everyone hears Maryland and assumes its Baltimore. The Eastern shore [separated by the Chesapeake bay from the rest of the state] and Western Maryland are beautiful.
Oh and I just got renewal notice for M813 last week. And M931 last month
Thanks again for every ones concern and help with our short sighted law makers

 

[Ajax MD]

@F18hornetM It's actually encouraging that you received renewal notifications.

It really does seem like this is just the MSP gearing up to start some s---. There is no legislation, only a poorly worded bulletin but we need to get out in front of this before it becomes a real problem.

@BKubu I emailed Delegate Seth Howard with a brief explanation of the problem and requested an in-person appointment of 15 minutes to explain the problem and propose a few possible solutions. We'll see what happens. Delegate Howard is (R).

My wife and I could probably drive her HMMWV around occasionally and locally for 2 years without any tags at all, and then apply for Historic tags when it's eligible but that's not how I do business. I don't want to make the problem worse for law-abiding owners.

 

[Ajax MD]

Here's a brief update:

1. The MVPA has contacted me. I have given them more specifics and I'm waiting to hear back.
2. A representative from Mission BBQ has also contacted me.

The Maryland Mission BBQ offices were unaware of the bulletin. The Mission BBQ rep asked me what I expected of Mission BBQ and I stated that in the possibly near future, I'd like to have them join up with MV owners and MVPA in lobbying for positive legislation in Maryland, if it became necessary.

The rep stated that they have a relationship with the state police as a uniformed service and that they might be able to talk to them. I asked him to hold off until I have more resources gathered. (Don't poke the bear...yet.)

The rep informed me that they don't operate their vehicles in Michigan (for example) because legislation has flat-out banned all M/V's from public roads and they abide by that. I think he was trying to tell me that they don't have a lot of leverage on this problem either. However, he did seem amenable to joining up and helping out, within reason.

 

[m1010plowboy]

Is there any current state legislation in Maryland that protects historical items? I started looking through this but a bunker distracted me.

Guide to Maryland Legislative History Research | Maryland Courts

mdcourts.gov

Here's another 'point of contact' and rousing up the local universities historical, legal and media associations couldn't hurt.

Home | Department of History

history.umd.edu

My gubermint buddy reminds me that when opposed/attacked he must go into absolute defensive mode backing up whatever position he thought was correct at the time. Only facts, documentation and public pressure through his administration is enough to alter a decision. It helps when they're given solutions for problems that meet clearly stated public objectives.

What they love to see is a determined bunch of folks that aren't going to stop.

Onward

 

[Dayron84]

Glad I don’t live in yankee land! What’s next? Way too much government


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[Ajax MD]

Glad I don’t live in yankee land! What’s next? Way too much government


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I'd like to point out that Virginia just became "Yankee Land. " Nowhere is safe.

 

[F18hornetM]

Amen on the whole Yankee thing. This is not about not about that. That remark doesn't do anything to help remedy the issue and is actually not a completely accurate comment. .
The state of Maryland is not with out issues, mostly due to a fairly large city. [and DC] However, many if us that are from families that have lived here since colonel times take great pride in our state. The same goes for my country!

 

[marchplumber]

Glad I don’t live in yankee land! What’s next? Way too much government


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Like it or not, there isn't ONE state "safe" from this type of stuff. What we used to say would "never happen" has become common place. What was common, is no longer even thought of. I believe we should stick together, work together, and push forward. It's why I've "helped" in several threads that aren't based in Illinois. Our hobby isn't limited to "Yankee" or "Southerner"..........................it's about us ALL!!
I don't have a "good feeling" about this, but will strive to alter the outcome , with whatever limited resources are available. We have some members with way more experience in these matters reaching out to their contacts. We have LARGE member base. Let's keep marching forward, one positive step at a time.

 

[sue]

Both times our EUCs (SF-97s)? Did not say
“Off road only” and has previously stated,
Maybe residents of Maryland with a military
Interest should point out that the places
doing inspections will be breaking the law
If they inspect vehicles built before 1966,
since these do not meet FMVSS or have a
17 digit vin. ? Because CFR 49 571 applies
to vehicles built after that.
Please feel free to correct me if I’m off base
here. Used to have some old cars and had a
little experience with the vin problem.

 

[Dayron84]

Like it or not, there isn't ONE state "safe" from this type of stuff. What we used to say would "never happen" has become common place. What was common, is no longer even thought of. I believe we should stick together, work together, and push forward. It's why I've "helped" in several threads that aren't based in Illinois. Our hobby isn't limited to "Yankee" or "Southerner"..........................it's about us ALL!!
I don't have a "good feeling" about this, but will strive to alter the outcome , with whatever limited resources are available. We have some members with way more experience in these matters reaching out to their contacts. We have LARGE member base. Let's keep marching forward, one positive step at a time.

Not trying to make this political but like it or not it is. Its no coincidence that Maryland has come down on this issue. Southern states in general are much more relaxed in these type of regulations. Not saying we are exempt, but much less likely. I’m all about helping this hobby for all of us and will be glad to help anyway I can... it benefits us all. We’re all in this for a common cause. Government would regulate how many times we take a piss each day if we would let them...just need to stand up for our cause


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[F18hornetM]

I agree, Over my life time laws have became more and more restrictive related to everything. That goes for all states , just some a little slower about changes than others.
Looks to me that the base issue is, Maryland will not inspect military vehicles. If you have military vehicle over 10,000 lbs and 25+ years old, it does not need to be inspected and can be tagged historic. If you have military vehicle less than 10,000 lbs and 20 years old it does not need to be inspected and can be tagged historic. Same goes for all old civilian vehicles, classic cars and pickups. Having said that, its been the law for as long as I can remember. In years past however, no one purchased military vehicles that were "newer" back then.

 

[Ajax MD]

I have a saying-

"The greatest threat to our liberties in the U.S. isn't China, DPRK or Russia, it's a crying mother standing in front of a state legislative body."

I've lost count of how many freedoms have been eroded by tearful mothers convincing legislators to "do something" because of a freak accident or just plain bad parenting. My least favorite phrase in the English language is: "We need to make sure that this never, ever happens again." Legislators pass these "feel good" laws to placate these people and to look good in the polls.

Remember the old adage- "Ignorance of the law is no excuse?" Maryland passed HUNDREDS of new laws in the last legislative session of 2019. How the hell is any ordinary citizen expected to keep up with this? One morning you wake up, you're an accidental criminal and you didn't even know it.

This expectation of a zero defect society isn't realistic and is totally incompatible with a free society. [/rant]

 

[Hm8483]

Well, that sucks.



I moved out of the state this year, but would be willing to donate what resources I can to help elected officials come up with something better if someone gets the ball rolling.

I was stationed there and got out in 17. I'm glad I left for reasons like this.

 

[joshuak]

I was stationed there and got out in 17. I'm glad I left for reasons like this.

Thank you for your service.

Only reason I left, was that the land I bought was 15 miles north of where I was living in MD and it happens to be in another state.

F18HornetM said it better than I can so I'll just quote him.

... Everyone hears Maryland and assumes its Baltimore. The Eastern shore [separated by the Chesapeake bay from the rest of the state] and Western Maryland are beautiful...

And the reason for my original post was to see how I could help with positive action like Bkubu is asking about.

Does anyone in MD know of any potentially sympathetic state legislators? It would be helpful if we could get out in front of this as opposed to reacting to an unfavorable bill.

I donated in support of the folks out in Colorado, wrote a letter trying to help keep MV's legal in Canada, just trying to do what I can to help support this hobby that I enjoy.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

Why would anyone want to live in Yankee land?

MAryland during the Civil War east of Frederick was rarely thought of as "Yankee land". Howsoever that may be, it seems that the creeping virus of banning former MV's started with the HMMWV and many people's attempt to circumvent the "Off Road" on the EUC. Now we all have a dog in the fight, as many other states will follow, mostly based on California's actions on the subject, but they will follow whichever way the wind seems to be blowing.

It has been of concern to me, but I will likely either look for a USAF vehicle, which is essentially civilian, or a more then 25 year old Unimog, which is not covered under these actions so far.

Have a Great Day! Texas will invite you in if you want to keep the MV!


Cheers,


Kyle.

 

[F18hornetM]

MAryland during the Civil War east of Frederick was rarely thought of as "Yankee land". Howsoever that may be, it seems that the creeping virus of banning former MV's started with the HMMWV and many people's attempt to circumvent the "Off Road" on the EUC. Now we all have a dog in the fight, as many other states will follow, mostly based on California's actions on the subject, but they will follow whichever way the wind seems to be blowing.

It has been of concern to me, but I will likely either look for a USAF vehicle, which is essentially civilian, or a more then 25 year old Unimog, which is not covered under these actions so far.

Have a Great Day! Texas will invite you in if you want to keep the MV!


Cheers,


Kyle.

You are correct about Maryland. Most don't know history well enough.
Little bit of history>>
Although it was a slave holding state, [Annapolis was 3rd largest slave trading city in the country] Maryland did not secede. Maryland is south of the Mason-Dixon line and would have voted to secede if not for the kidnapping of its legislators by the Union Army. Even though, during the Civil War, The majority of the population living north and west of Baltimore [Fredrick area] held loyalties to the Union, while most citizens living on larger farms in the southern and eastern areas of the state were sympathetic to the Confederacy.
It seems you are right. The virus [of all restrictions of freedom] just keep creeping along. Give us 50 more years or less and Texas will be like the rest of the crappy state governments. I hope not and pray things will change.
On a very bright note, I received my M-813 stickers in the mail today.
Thanks to everyone for their concern and support.