Are all Deuces Multifuel?

[doghead]

This thread is so full of incorrect information, it's ridiculous. Get on track and get the facts right or don't post.

 

[Keith_J]

Take a Cummins, Detroit, Cat, etc. and add a FDC off of a multifuel. Then go get you a tank full of unleaded. Please report here the results.

If you do this test you will find out that with the FDC installed it won't change a thing. Oh they will run but it could be for the last time if you run it very long.

Yeah, that sounds like an excellent way to fry the injection pump! The IP in the Hypercycle Multifuel is lubricated with engine oil, most other diesel pumps will be fried from non-lubricating effects of gasoline.

The multifuel capacity starts at the injection pump, then the injection nozzles, the combustion chamber, the induced swirl, the compression ratio and lastly, the fuel density compensator. Why last with the FDC? Because it is only needed to regulate output. They will function fine with it bypassed, only with possible reduced output or excessive EGT.

 

[retiredtoy]

Now you have me wondering! I read your part about the FDC. I looked at my IP and noticed a loop of plastic line connecting two fittings on the back of the pump. Is this the area of a FDC and does this mean my FDC has been bypassed?
(If you didn't know so much and I so little, I wouldn't be having to ask.)
I bought my M35A2 about two months ago, bought four heater kits just to get one, bought nine pair of tire chains just to get six. Having trouble explaining to wife why I need a deuce just to go to the coffee shop.
Thanks in advance on a reply.

 

[retiredtoy]

I sure don't know what I'm doing or how to do it. I wrote a big question about where the FDC was located and hit the "Post Quick Reply" Logged back on later and I don't see it listed.
What did I do Wrong?

 

[retiredtoy]

I finally realized that there were more pages of posts.
Usually when you do something Dumb, there is somebody close that can make you feel Dumber. I don't need them today. Sorry.
I hope somebody answers my initial question on the FDC

 

[saddamsnightmare]

December 27th, 2009.


Retiredtoy and Company:

I concur with Doghead above, there is quite enough bad information here to boggle the mind. Technically, most older diesels had some multifuel capability, but the LD 465 variants in the M35A2's were most generally seen with the Hypercycle heads, the dished pistons and the FDC units. Yes, a lot of FDC's have been bypassed, which makes it somewhat harder for the engine's governor to compensate for different density and BTU content fuels. The Army has pretty much gone to diesel fuel or JP4 as fuel to cut down the inventory and supply problems associated with different fuel requirements for different engines. The first Diesel engine in Germany burn ground up coal dust, and could not keep valves or rings in the engine because of the grit..... Some older diesels used variants of the Price-Rathbun chamber to create the swirl in the combustion air and to pre ignite the charge of diesel fuel, the LD 465 does it with the heads and pistons.
The M35A3's with the Cat and Cummins diesels are not considered to be multifuel engines per say, and would likely be ill tempered or short lived machines if it were attempted. I do believe that virtually none of the multifuels would pass a legitimate EPA exhaust gas test if attempted, as the Army in the 1980's attempted to get permission from the EPA to make another run of multifuel engines as spares and they were told "NO". This is what pretty much sealed the fate of the M35 series in military service in the US, not immediately, but over time due to attrition.
The LD-465 and its variants will burn a mixture of fuels, gasoline (less then 25% in the mix), JP4, Diesel, gear oils, No. 2 furnace oil, and some other small amounts of combustible liquids EXCEPT Aviation Gas, which the engine cannot tolerate in any degree. Many of our members are burning WMO and WVO in these trucks, and the WMO if properly filtered will probably do well, the WVO I feel has its problems, particularly in cold weather or if poorly filtered. The Multifuel capability was to get the trucks home in a post nuclear environment, when one could not be certain of fuel supplies,but generally was not intended as a staple fuel feed every day. Very few MODERN diesels can stand the fuel mixtures that the LD-465 could use and function for long, and none of them would survive an EPA exhaust test on the odd fuels.....
And yes, there are gas M35's still kicking around, mostly as brush fire trucks, but probably none in front line service in the US military.

My M35A2 "Saddam's Nightmare" generally burns clean diesel with some WMO and in cold weather a less then 25% gasoline mixture, as the gas serves to dilute the diesel and the motor oil in cold weather, but does not fire off as well as straight diesel.

Good luck and keep an eye out for David Doyle's Magnum opus on the M35's, when he gets around publishing it.

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan

NB: A dynomometer test would not be "Empirical" evidence, it would be a quantifyable, repeatable set of conditions and resultant data that would stand the test of scientific inquiry. Empirical evidence is virtually only observation and is not necessarily repeatable in an exact manner. I will however, stand with Kenny, David Doyle, Doghead and company on what constitutes as true "Multifuel" or Hypercycle based engine design, and they can be normally aspirated, as "Saddam's Nightmare" has one and it has the "Multifuel" patent plate attached to it and the FDC still working.......

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan

 

[Brian Thomas]

Did any one read the first post?????

Now that was some funny reading. Who cares if it will run on oil or diesel or gas?

The guy in the FIRST post wanted to know if there were trucks built with GAS engines. You guys cant stay on topic for nothing.

I did however enjoy this read!

 

[Keith_J]

Now you have me wondering! I read your part about the FDC. I looked at my IP and noticed a loop of plastic line connecting two fittings on the back of the pump. Is this the area of a FDC and does this mean my FDC has been bypassed?
(If you didn't know so much and I so little, I wouldn't be having to ask.)
I bought my M35A2 about two months ago, bought four heater kits just to get one, bought nine pair of tire chains just to get six. Having trouble explaining to wife why I need a deuce just to go to the coffee shop.
Thanks in advance on a reply.

Yes, it sounds like your FDC has been bypassed. It should have had a yellow sticker applied to the oil filter housings stating so along with a reference of how to restore the FDC if needed.

By about 1990, most of the gasoline requirement on the battlefield had been replaced with diesel/JP-4 so the "need" for multifuel was gone.

 

[pittdog]

Guy ! you got it right ! I don't have to say it any better ! SSG Pittman USA Ret (52-D)

 

[emr]

Okay, it's another dumb newbe question, BUT I DID A SEARCH!

Many of the auctions and ads say 'multifuel', but some don't. I know that there was a gasoline engine variant, but aside from this, are the vast majority multifuel?


Brian just an fyi,

This was the first question,He new there were gas engines. But aside from that it says were the majority multys, So the answer is," yes ", until the A3 came about then they were diesels....randy

 

[sandcobra164]

If it's an A2, then it is a multifuel, if it's an A3 (1993 to 1997) Caterpillar repower / rebuild then it is not a multifuel. An easy way to see, if it is a stick shift, then it's multifuel, if it's an automatic, then it's clean diesel only. Sure there are a few M35's left laying around out there but I doubt they would be on a GSA or GL auction at this point. Don't read too much into the auction listings, preview to see for yourself. Mine listed at the bottom "does not start" and within 2 seconds of the new batteries being installed, it fired right off, built air and drove 120 miles under it's own power!!!!!

 

[Brian Thomas]

Brian just an fyi,

This was the first question,He new there were gas engines. But aside from that it says were the majority multys, So the answer is," yes ", until the A3 came about then they were diesels....randy[/quote]


So would'nt the simple answer would be, A2 yes A3 no. I dont understand how it turned into a pissing match of wits, The best answer I have read so far was,

If it's an A2, then it is a multifuel, if it's an A3 (1993 to 1997) Caterpillar repower / rebuild then it is not a multifuel. An easy way to see, if it is a stick shift, then it's multifuel, if it's an automatic, then it's clean diesel only. Sure there are a few M35's left laying around out there but I doubt they would be on a GSA or GL auction at this point. Don't read too much into the auction listings, preview to see for yourself.

Like I said earlier, this was a good read. It seemed to however, go off topic real fast. I did learn some info but did not read to much into the questionable posts. (incorrect info)

 

[rwbrown72]

Do you have a dyno? I like empirical evidence...

This is a great thread!!!!! This is the most smartest guy I have ever read about! These rest of you guys are about as stupidest as me!

 

[EMD567]

All I know is that while I was on vacation, my coverage driver filled my diesel delivery vehicle with a tank load of unleaded. He made it 3/4's of a mile before the cummins seized up. I was not happy I had to drive a spare for 3 weeks why my mechiniac replaced the motor.

 

[roscoe]

All I know is that while I was on vacation, my coverage driver filled my diesel delivery vehicle with a tank load of unleaded. He made it 3/4's of a mile before the cummins seized up. I was not happy I had to drive a spare for 3 weeks why my mechiniac replaced the motor.

A guy that used to work for me told me he did that with a diesel delivery truck for the place he previously worked. Topic came up when he attempted to put diesel in my gas dump truck. He didn't notice anything wrong until the truck quit running. Wonder why they wouldn't re-hire him - he said he was the best.

 

[midevilduece]

I also ran my cummins 6bt Dodge ram on gasoline when my son accidentally put gas in and was afraid to tell me. It stalled a lot and was a bitch to start but it did run. I figured out why it was running like crap when I bled the injectors. Oddly it would start up normally when the engine was cold. After it heated up it was a pain to start. Don't want to ruffle feathers but just giving you guys a real life instance when a straight diesel motor DID run on gasoline..

 

[frank8003]

2009 to 2013
How did I get here?
May have looked up multi fuel...............................

But I finally found out what that silly contraction IMHO means ......

IMHO, In My Honest Opinion or, In My Humble Opinion
MHO, My Honest Opinion or, My Humble Opinion

 

[Floridianson]

2009 to 2013
How did I get here?
May have looked up multi fuel...............................

But I finally found out what that silly contraction IMHO means ......

IMHO, In My Honest Opinion or, In My Humble Opinion
MHO, My Honest Opinion or, My Humble Opinion

Would you like to try another one Frank. Try TYHOOYA. I will give you a hit. Take your head out of your ---.

Not directed at you. To me it means someone is conceded.

 

[dmetalmiki]

Hate to break it to you but you are completely wrong! Attached is a piece written by David Doyle that kinda sums up the operation and design of the "Multifuel" engine. I would suggest you invest a little research on the subject before stating incorrect information. Us people seem to be a little more informed on this stuff that you think. If you think I'm wrong, bring any other diesel out to any of the events we host and run it on pure gasoline. Oh wait, iit won't run on gas! My Multi's will run on straight gas and yes, the LDS motors are mutis and have an FDC.

"There are a lot of myths floating around regarding the Multifuel engine. I
will try to help you.
In the late 1950's the decision was made to adapt the G742 series vehicles
(as well as many other tactical vehicles) to run on diesel or gasoline or
various other fuels. Fitting the Continental LDS-427 turbosupercharged,
multifuel engine did this. This engine built under license from M.A.N.
(Maschinenfabrik Augsburg-Nurnberg) uses the Hypercycle combustion process.
Into the top of the piston of this engine is machined a spherical combustion
chamber. During operation the injector sprays 95% of its charge onto the wall
of this chamber in the form of a thin film. The remaining 5% is atomized.
(A conventional diesel injector atomizes much more of the fuel.)
The compression stroke, which generates temperatures in the 900-1000 degree
range, ignites this atomized charge, and the main portion of the charge is
gradually vaporized by an air swirl created during the intake and compression
strokes. Since the air swirl removes only the top surface of the fuel
sprayed on the walls of this combustion chamber during the power stroke
combustion is even and there is no detonation knock. "

Absolutely correct.
And the (Any) other doubting or incorrectly knowledgable persons should read the original Technical design and function specifications of the M.A.N. Multuifuel Engine.
They (the people reading, and trying to digest) Will find this a LONG and complicated read!.
Describing a very Sophisticated (Type of) Ignition Compression Cycle Engine.
There is a post on this site site somewhere but I can not copy the URL.
Try this.
Browse Publications Technical Papers 640371


1964-01-01 [h=1]Development of Multifuel Features of the LD-465 and LDS-465 Military Engines 640371[/h]
Continental Aviation, through contract with the U.S. Army Ordnance Corps, has developed the LD-465 and LDS-465 engines at 140 and 210 bhp, respectively, as an outgrowth of the basic LDS-427 multifuel military engine. The engines are of conventional 6-cyl, in-line design except for those features contributing to their multifuel capability. These features include the Hypercycle combustion system, intake swirl port, water-heated intake manifold, a simplified manifold flame heater to aid in cold starting, and a fuel density compensator for maintaining equal power ratings on all fuels.