ATF red dye?

[chevyCUCV]

If they took a sample then you are fine. I have never heard of a DOT officer dipping tanks on any MV. If they issue a ticket it will show ATF and not the dye that is easily detected by their test. I run ATF in the deuce and have never been pulled over and the cops hate me so I am sure you will be fine.

What did you do to the ??
(just a joke to all leo)

In my area, I watched a guy fill his dodge truck with off road, I took his plate number, and called the State Police, they did not seem too interested, and I again saw the same guy at the same pump last week, so I guess in my area they just don't care at all.

Not cool, not cool.

***** EDITED FOR FOUL LANGUAGE ****

 

[islandguydon]

In my area, I watched a guy fill his dodge truck with off road, I took his plate number, and called the State Police, they did not seem too interested, and I again saw the same guy at the same pump last week, so I guess in my area they just don't care at all.

Wow, I am floored. I am speechless and for the life of me I don't know how to respond to your comment. Why on earth would you get the police involved in anything other than a shooting or a rescue. I just don't get it..! Nevermind....!

 

[Maxgussam]

Wow, I am floored. I am speechless and for the life of me I don't know how to respond to your comment. Why on earth would you get the police involved in anything other than a shooting or a rescue. I just don't get it..! Nevermind....!

There are signs at lots of scale houses encouraging drivers to "Report Fuel Tax Violators".
There is an 800 number to call...
I have never heard of anyone actually calling someone in though!

 

[trukhead]

I have about 10% of fuel tank capacity of road fuel and an unknown percentage of ATF mixed with it in My A3.
How long will it take to get rid of the red dye in the ATF with repeated fills of straight road fuel?
I don't have a license plate on the truck and run it offroad most of the time. I have to run it to town to fuel it up and I put road fuel in it.
I will WI title it soon though, but I consider it an ag-offroad truck for the present in the same class as the manure hauler converted semi tractors that run over the road around here.

 

[Gastrap]

Went to a meeting with DOT a couple years ago for work. The officer said if they find off road in your road truck, they fine you a base fine plus a fine per gallon of all red fuel in your truck AND on your property regardless of intended end use. He cited an actual case (his words) of a farmer who got caught and wound up with over $10k in fines.

I've seen a few red filters on semi's come through the shop.

 

[commandojeff]

I bought my 5 ton from GL. Does anyone know what the military runs through them? I assume it's not dyed cause why would the military dye it anyway? But lets say they have been running my truck on red diesel and I get pulled over, they pull my filters and see they are red... Now I'm screwed for running off road fuel through the truck when I didn't own it? I've only had the truck for about 4 weeks now, and the diesel wasn't red when I got the truck, so I assume it's fine. But still... This thread makes you wonder about things like that. I think I might pull my filters and see. No point in getting a fine that costs more than what you bought the truck for!

 

[trukhead]

...I've seen a few red filters on semi's come through the shop.

If I understand correctly, the dye colors the filters and then used as evidence for use as off-road fuel in the vehicle in question.

I never thought of that, Thanks!!

I'm going to run a few tanks of fuel through the truck and then change out the filters again!!

 

[trukhead]

I bought my 5 ton from GL. Does anyone know what the military runs through them? I assume it's not dyed cause why would the military dye it anyway? But lets say they have been running my truck on red diesel and I get pulled over, they pull my filters and see they are red... Now I'm screwed for running off road fuel through the truck when I didn't own it? I've only had the truck for about 4 weeks now, and the diesel wasn't red when I got the truck, so I assume it's fine. But still... This thread makes you wonder about things like that. I think I might pull my filters and see. No point in getting a fine that costs more than what you bought the truck for!

Maybe they source fuel at stations from time to time such as a reserve unit transporting something between weekends or who knows what.

 

[BiffJ]

After picking up an M923 in Indianapolis this spring we realized the military uses red dyed fuel. Went back and looked at the M936 we picked up in Michigan earlier this spring and it too had red fuel. Seems the feds are using non-taxed fuel as well. I guess they don't need to help out with the road taxes despite being one of the biggest users of roads in the US.
Basic statement here is don't depend on what they were using to be clean of red dye. You may need to change filters and pray for a while til you can get the system cleaned out.

Frank

 

[commandojeff]

After picking up an M923 in Indianapolis this spring we realized the military uses red dyed fuel. Went back and looked at the M936 we picked up in Michigan earlier this spring and it too had red fuel. Seems the feds are using non-taxed fuel as well. I guess they don't need to help out with the road taxes despite being one of the biggest users of roads in the US.
Basic statement here is don't depend on what they were using to be clean of red dye. You may need to change filters and pray for a while til you can get the system cleaned out.

Frank

Huh, that's interesting. I mean I can understand either way when talking about the government.

I can't see why a DOT officer would trouble me greatly about it. I don't have dyed fuel in the tank so there's no reason for them to check the filters... but ya never know. Seeing as I don't even have a way to get off road fuel and I have proof of purchase from the government, I don't see how they could make a case on me. I'm going to pull my filters though and find out. Better safe than sorry.

 

[nf6x]

I picked up an M35A2C several years ago from March ARB (back when they still had DRMO/GL sales there) that had red fuel in the tank.

The fuel in my most recent purchases (M923 and M936A1 out of Barstow) looks clear yellow through the filler cap, but I should check it more carefully. I have new fuel filters set aside for both of them.

I've been accumulating WMO for use in my multifuels, but I don't know whether I want to run it in my NHC250s now that I'm getting rid of my multifuels. I think it has some ATF in the mix, too.

I looked up Red 164 on Wikipedia out of curiosity. I'm no chemist, but to my untrained eyes the chemical structure looks awfully similar to normal components in petroleum fuel, with a few benzene rings linked together by other stuff. That brings a couple things to mind: First, that makes me suspect that it would be difficult if even possible to break the stuff down selectively once it's mixed into fuel (just hypothetically speaking, of course... it's my understanding that "fuel laundering" is thoroughly illegal and vigorously punished if detected). Second, just out of curiosity, I wonder how well an engine would run on 100% red dye 164?

 

[pyro1955]

Wow, I am floored. I am speechless and for the life of me I don't know how to respond to your comment. Why on earth would you get the police involved in anything other than a shooting or a rescue. I just don't get it..! Nevermind....!

If he were running ATF mixed in regular fuel, or running a Multi-fuel on ATF it would be one thing, but I do not approve of someone running a regular pickup truck on the road burning Off Road Fuel, only because he's getting it cheaper, I don't run it on-road, as I don't want to get busted, this guy deserves to be caught. Sorry, It's not like I like paying taxes, but I also can not justify letting someone get away with making me pay more for the roads, as he is one of the ones causing me to pay more. This guy is a crook, just like those that play the system and scam welfare etc... Sorry, that's just the way it is. Unfortunatley in my area they just do not care, I guess I should give up and start filling up with the off road too??

 

[pyro1955]

Sounds like the OP was using atf as a added lube source for the legel fuel.

I have absolutely no problem with the person that was snagged by the cop in the original post here, if he is or was using ATF I have no problems, the guy I was speaking of was not using ATF, he simply pulls up to the OFF ROAD Pump on a regular basis with his street truck to evade paying road tax, that I have a problem with. Maybe some people here did not understand where I was at. In my opinion if people can use ATF and burn it as fuel instead of where most people dispose of it on their driveway to reduce dust... That is fine with me, as a matter of fact, I would use it in my deuce if I had it.

 

[nf6x]

So you would burn untaxed fuel (waste ATF) in your own vehicle if you had access to it, but you report somebody else doing that to the authorities?

 

[doskiez]

Claim up and down that it is an additive at a low percentage and happens to be red in color. That is about the only way you will have any chance of getting out of it. At least in texas I know folks that get dipped running all or part Waste Motor Oil in their road trucks and that is their usual story and they hope the revenuers buy it. I wish I was under south carolina law.... the blenders license is free but we have to post a $30,000 bond in case we dont pay our taxes on the blended fuel. I am currently looking into this option because it will still be cheaper than $4.00/ gallon diesel

 

[dstang97]

If he were running ATF mixed in regular fuel, or running a Multi-fuel on ATF it would be one thing, but I do not approve of someone running a regular pickup truck on the road burning Off Road Fuel, only because he's getting it cheaper, I don't run it on-road, as I don't want to get busted, this guy deserves to be caught. Sorry, It's not like I like paying taxes, but I also can not justify letting someone get away with making me pay more for the roads, as he is one of the ones causing me to pay more. This guy is a crook, just like those that play the system and scam welfare etc... Sorry, that's just the way it is. Unfortunatley in my area they just do not care, I guess I should give up and start filling up with the off road too??

you're one of those "see something say something" People arn't you???

Maybe he is exempt and has a farm?
Maybe he does pay taxes on the red fuel?

 

[nf6x]

I don't see any legal distinction between running a multifuel on ATF for on-road use vs. running a pickup on farm diesel for on-road use. Both are examples of the exact same violation: Tax evasion.

I'm not saying that either should be OK or that either should be restricted. I'm just saying that under current laws as I understand them, they're both violations of the exact same law. So saying that one is OK but the other is grounds for calling the cops does not make rational sense to me.

I am interested in hearing any verifiable cases of people avoiding prosecution using the defense that they used a small amount of ATF as an additive to regular taxed fuel. There's a lot of speculation flying around in avery thread I've ever seen regarding legal encounters with red dye in the tank, but not nearly as much hard information about successful defenses, exactly how testing is performed in the field and in the laboratory, whether courts even listen to such defenses, etc. I would imagine that this is further complicated by different experiences over time and in different jurisdictions.

 

[FormerNewMVGuy]

There are signs at lots of scale houses encouraging drivers to "Report Fuel Tax Violators".
There is an 800 number to call...
I have never heard of anyone actually calling someone in though!

Brings to mind a saying we have around here, "Snitches get Stitches"

 

[simpleserf]

I have filled up the farm truck at the off road pump several times. You then get the receipt, and it goes into the file cabinet at home, and at the end of the year, you fill out the paperwork on it and keep the receipt (like all other farm exemptions in NY) for if (when) you get audited. For all you know, that person was doing just that. As someone who has been reported before, please leave the law enforcement to law enforcement.

Regardless, I'll be interested to see how this works out for the op.

 

[nf6x]

I found a reference to an actual lab test of ATF at this address:

?dye in atf? - Dodge Diesel - Diesel Truck Resource Forums

Of particular interest:

The State Lab for Montana DOT tested my sample 20% clear Diesel-80% Used ATF. Using the Spectrum Scale it was easy to see that this is not Died Diesel. It is way too dark for the light to penetrate it compared to Dyed Diesel. This only would raise the question as to what it really is, thus leading to a test using an Infra-red. Here we have problems due to the fact that the dye in ATF and Dyed Diesel is the same, Red 164. However, due to the readings at "The End" of the IR spectrum this test would be inconclusive as well. In both tests the amount of dye is far too great for it to be Dyed Diesel. In this case over 10X too much. The lab saved the info so if another sample should arrive they could do a comparison and deduct to a conclusion that they may have a mix of ATF and Diesel.

So this tells me:

• ATF and farm diesel use the same red dye: red 164
• Dye concentration in ATF is much higher than in farm diesel

I don't think this bodes well for somebody trying to contest lab results. While a high percentage of ATF doesn't look like farm diesel because the dye concentration is way too large, having a tank full of what clearly is not un-dyed diesel fuel is just as bad. The charge being fought is not "using fuel from the farm diesel pump"; it's "using fuel that hasn't been taxed", and the farm diesel pump is just one source of that. Furthermore, it looks like a smaller percentage of ATF used as an additive could dump enough red 164 into the fuel to make it look just like farm diesel.