Availability of TQG's

[Chainbreaker]

I've posted this before in another thread and the below linked fuel chart comparison/summary is still a good read for those on the fence about which type of generator should I buy based on fuel choice.

"Regarding choice of generator based on fuel type...here is a handy in-depth fuel comparison chart with advantages/disadvantages.

BTW, I already had a 1,000 gallon propane tank (800 gallons effective) on site but chose a diesel generator based on fuel efficiency, engine longevity and portability of genset."

 

[Coug]

I've posted this before in another thread and the below linked fuel chart comparison/summary is still a good read for those on the fence about which type of generator should I buy based on fuel choice.

"Regarding choice of generator based on fuel type...here is a handy in-depth fuel comparison chart with advantages/disadvantages.

BTW, I already had a 1,000 gallon propane tank (800 gallons effective) on site but chose a diesel generator based on fuel efficiency, engine longevity and portability of genset."

I looked over that page, and some of the claims don't really sound right from practical experience.
Examples:

Biodiesel lasts 18-24 months without additives. If you try to store biodiesel for any length of time without additives, you're going to grow algae and other stuff in it, because the organic components of biodiesel are very tasty to some microorganisms. It also oxidizes a lot faster than regular diesel because the organic components

Diesel generators require more maintenance than a comparable gaseous unit

Emulsified diesel: easily obtained. I've never actually heard of emulsified diesel, and have no idea where to acquirer it.

For both Natural gas/Propane they are claiming quieter engine noise levels. Quieter than what? Almost every propane engine is a gasoline engine block with a different intake. You get the exact same noise levels from the same setup.

Diesel equipment is competitively prices cor a comparative sized water cooled gaseous model with the same features: No, no they aren't. Diesels will always cost more because everything about the engine has to be tougher/stronger due to higher compression, and the injection system is spread to every cylinder, not just the intake like many gasoline units.

Propane begins to derate at -20 degrees ABOVE zero... Exactly what temp is it when you have a negative number on the positive side of zero?
Yes, propane is temp sensitive in how quickly it vaporizes in the tank (most smaller propane engines use vapor withdraw instead of liquid, so it has to be able to vaporize in the tank. If the tank is buried, then that doesn't really matter as it's protected from temp changes.

Propane is as much as 3 times the fuel consumption compared to diesel. Propane has about 85k BTUs per gallon, diesel has 130k BTUs. So diesel has less than twice the energy of propane. You can pick and choose for comparison, but I can find one diesel engine that will burn twice the amount of fuel as another one at identical output, so finding a diesel engine that burns 1/3 the amount of fuel as a propane one isn't hard to do.


There are more issues I have with that chart, but those are just the first ones that jumped out at me.

 

[Chainbreaker]

Yeah, I saw a few things I questioned as well but generally agree with how the "fuels are positioned" in that comparison. Haven't seen any better fuel comparisons as it related to generators that I have run across.

Never heard of "emulsified diesel" either. Perhaps it's a cleaner burning diesel fuel used in big industrial sized generators?

Before choosing diesel, I did some research and read various articles that purport that propane being a "dry fuel" is harder on valve trains thus requiring more valve maintenance/adjustment versus fuels like diesel. Perhaps that has been addressed more recently by better design & metallurgy?

I think the "-20 above zero" is a typo. Probably meant 20 below zero, aka -20F.

I did some searching and there are some cautions regarding propane during "extreme cold weather" that are mentioned. Of course, there are issues with diesel fuel at those same temps but there are anti-gel fuel additives to prevent fuel gelling or 911 diesel treatment for gelled fuel. There are also cold weather kits/heaters for diesels as well as for propane generators.

Source for below excerpt: Do Propane Generators Work In Cold Weather? – Be Prepared For It
"Decrease in Fuel Pressure
In very cold weather, even before propane in the generator freezes, it can be difficult for the generator to provide fuel to everywhere it needs to. This tends to happen because the tank of propane inside of the generator is colder than the weather outside.

As propane generators turn on, they start the process of vaporizing liquid propane so that it can run from the storage tank, through tubes, into the generator, and then provide power. If any of those parts themselves are too cold, the generator could have issues starting the process and getting enough fuel.

Increased Use of Propane
Before a propane generator stops working entirely, the propane inside could be used up at a much higher rate in cold weather.

This is largely due to a lack of efficiency in very cold weather. When temperature and weather are moderate, propane has a very easy time converting to a gas to be used. This happens quickly and efficiently.

However, as propane reaches very cold temperatures, the conversion process can take a long time and decrease efficiency overall. This means an increase in the amount of propane used, even for less power.

If you notice that you seem to be going through a lot more propane than normal, it is recommended to keep the tank warmer. One common way to do this is to utilize a cold weather kit for propane generators."



Anyway, despite have a 1,000 gallon propane tank on my property and hardly ever experiencing below zero temps, I'm sticking with diesels for now. I like diesel, I also like beer!

 

[DieselAddict]

Which fuel to use for a generator is only slightly less polarizing than asking which god to you pray to or who you voted for president.

My choice was pretty simple. I have more diesel engines on the property than any other fuel type. I'm able to go get fuel myself (assuming its not sold out during an "event"). Its relatively safe to store and when properly treated and in good environmental conditions can be stored for an extended time.

I like Propane from a fuel stability standpoint. Its hard to beat it in long term storage situations nor does it clog up carburetors. If I ran a generator once every few years for a limited time, I'd probably have one. Why I don't have one is due to cost of fuel and the necessity of having to rely on a delivery service to bring a sufficient quantity to run a generator for a few days. In years past the generators got regular workouts during power outages. Now that I have solar with battery backup, I run them a LOT less. In the last couple of years I've burned more fuel load testing than in actual use. Sad but true. Sounds like I'm talking myself into a propane generator! hahahza

Between 3 diesel vehicles (only the wifes car is gas), 2 diesel tractors, one diesel excavator, and an embarrassing number of diesel generators, fuel rotation is never a problem. I can easily draw fuel from vehicles to power generators if there was a need.

I do have a couple of the honda inverter based gas generators. Those were both purchased for a RV habit I had about 15 years ago. Both run perfectly fine to this day since I don't use gasoline containing alcohol in either of them and I run them dry before storage. The EU3000i sat for like 10 years untouched in the camper. Last fall for kicks I cleaned out the fuel tank, put some fresh gas in it and it started on the FIRST PULL. No complaints there.

If there is one PSA I can offer in all this rambling its this - find non-ethanol fuel for all your small engines. There are websites dedicated to listing alcohol free gas locations. Never run that crap in anything other than vehicles that were designed for it.

 

[nextalcupfan]

+1 for no ethanol fuel.
I have had several co-workers come to me with small engine machines like pressure washers and snow blowers saying they wouldn't start after sitting for 6 months or more.

Every time it was the fuel had precipitated into some white slimy substance and clogged up the carb main jet.
On a pressure washer this happened twice within 8 months.
I fervently told them to get premium fuel with no ethanol explaining why, this was about 1.5-2 years ago now.
I messaged them a month or 2 ago and they said everything is still working perfectly with the no ethanol fuel, even when it sits longer than before.

 

[Mullaney]

+1 for no ethanol fuel.
I have had several co-workers come to me with small engine machines like pressure washers and snow blowers saying they wouldn't start after sitting for 6 months or more.

Every time it was the fuel had precipitated into some white slimy substance and clogged up the carb main jet.
On a pressure washer this happened twice within 8 months.
I fervently told them to get premium fuel with no ethanol explaining why, this was about 1.5-2 years ago now.
I messaged them a month or 2 ago and they said everything is still working perfectly with the no ethanol fuel, even when it sits longer than before.

.
Even automobiles don't like gas made with corn squeezins.

Turns out with very little reading, using the corn that our government is turning into alcohol and then forcing it into fuel is not good stewardship of national resources either. (Off Soapbox)

 

[NATCAD]

It all depends on what exactly it is you are trying to plan for, and what your expected needs are.

you could burn though that same 500 gallon tank (which in reality is about 300 gallons usable before needing refilled) in less than a week.

^this is what I would expect most to do.

I know of people with 1000 gallon propane tanks that they bought, had installed, but then haven't touched since. Because it's 100% sealed and no oxygen, propane doesn't go bad. In 20-30 years, long after any gasoline of diesel has turned to sludge or evaporated, that propane will still be just as good to use as it was the day the tank was filled.

Yes, store as much as possible, I think propane is better for cooking with and maybe heating water with.

Are they good for prime power? No, they aren't. The expectation isn't for society to collapse and have no other power source or more fuel available. Unless you have a farm and store hundreds of gallons of diesel fuel, then if everything goes to crap it isn't likely all the fuel stations will be filled up with diesel to refill your gen either.

I would think that anyone who runs more than one piece road equipment would have at least 500 gallons of storage, and once you start buying fuel delivered and averaging your cost, keeping it fresh through polishing, and having some shock available in case of algae. I would think any farm with more than a loader tractor would have 1000 gallons of diesel.

My general thoughts are, if you're living off grid, then prime power is needed. If you are just looking for a backup power source for a few days to possibly a few weeks, then a propane generator will work just fine as long as you plan ahead.

I am looking for recommendations of commercial diesel prime power units that I can recommend to those that I care about given the costs of meps, assume they already store or cycle bulk diesel tanks. I have the meps already to cover my needs (and likely my neighbors).
Let me know what options there are that are reasonable cost, likely looking for 2-3 units.

 

[NATCAD]

+1 for no ethanol fuel.
I have had several co-workers come to me with small engine machines like pressure washers and snow blowers saying they wouldn't start after sitting for 6 months or more.

Every time it was the fuel had precipitated into some white slimy substance and clogged up the carb main jet.
On a pressure washer this happened twice within 8 months.
I fervently told them to get premium fuel with no ethanol explaining why, this was about 1.5-2 years ago now.
I messaged them a month or 2 ago and they said everything is still working perfectly with the no ethanol fuel, even when it sits longer than before.

What do you think about running normal pump gas on small engines when you have work to do, and then running them dry for storage, or switching them to a canned fuel to clean out last hour of work?

Edit - I see Diesel addict above has said same thing, run it empty.

 

[NATCAD]

.
Even automobiles don't like gas made with corn squeezins.

Turns out with very little reading, using the corn that our government is turning into alcohol and then forcing it into fuel is not good stewardship of national resources either. (Off Soapbox)

Corn is for eating or feeding animals that you want to eat. That ethanol subsidy should end yesterday given the coming expected needs.

 

[NATCAD]

Assuming you can find one in stock:

Compact Power 12 kW Diesel Generator - Hardy Diesel

Perkins 12kW Compact Power (CP) diesel generators are designed for quiet operation in space contrained applications. Sound attenuated enclosure.

hardydiesel.com

Thank you sir..!

edit , I looked them up: "These dependable diesel generators use Perkins engines to provide environmentally-friendly, Tier 4 Final-emissions rated operation "

I had not factored for that. I guess it makes sense that any commercial diesel will have these handicaps now a days.

 

[Farmitall]

Which fuel to use for a generator is only slightly less polarizing than asking which god to you pray to or who you voted for president.

My choice was pretty simple. I have more diesel engines on the property than any other fuel type. I'm able to go get fuel myself (assuming its not sold out during an "event"). Its relatively safe to store and when properly treated and in good environmental conditions can be stored for an extended time.

I like Propane from a fuel stability standpoint. Its hard to beat it in long term storage situations nor does it clog up carburetors. If I ran a generator once every few years for a limited time, I'd probably have one. Why I don't have one is due to cost of fuel and the necessity of having to rely on a delivery service to bring a sufficient quantity to run a generator for a few days. In years past the generators got regular workouts during power outages. Now that I have solar with battery backup, I run them a LOT less. In the last couple of years I've burned more fuel load testing than in actual use. Sad but true. Sounds like I'm talking myself into a propane generator! hahahza

Between 3 diesel vehicles (only the wifes car is gas), 2 diesel tractors, one diesel excavator, and an embarrassing number of diesel generators, fuel rotation is never a problem. I can easily draw fuel from vehicles to power generators if there was a need.

I do have a couple of the honda inverter based gas generators. Those were both purchased for a RV habit I had about 15 years ago. Both run perfectly fine to this day since I don't use gasoline containing alcohol in either of them and I run them dry before storage. The EU3000i sat for like 10 years untouched in the camper. Last fall for kicks I cleaned out the fuel tank, put some fresh gas in it and it started on the FIRST PULL. No complaints there.

If there is one PSA I can offer in all this rambling its this - find non-ethanol fuel for all your small engines. There are websites dedicated to listing alcohol free gas locations. Never run that crap in anything other than vehicles that were designed for it.

Agree totally and I would also advise the same.

I've been running all my small engines on 90 octane, non ethanol gasoline for over ten years and have not had a single fuel related problem with any of them.

 

[nextalcupfan]

What do you think about running normal pump gas on small engines when you have work to do, and then running them dry for storage, or switching them to a canned fuel to clean out last hour of work?

We did try running dry in normal fuel, we still got junk precipitating out in the tank and carb.

Are you going through more than 100 gallons a year in your small engines? If not I think the $0.40 a gallon more in fuel is a negligible increase in cost for peace of mind.

I mean I don't know about you but I've been using something. Finished for the day intending on using it the next day.
Then something comes up. I get distracted and forget thier is still fuel in the tank.
It ends up getting put away for 6 months-1 year.
Now when I need it again the fuel system needs a clean out.

 

[NATCAD]

But with taxes and such you'd be in it for quite a bit more than that. Then you have to add a fuel tank, enclosure, etc to be comparable to a TQG.

I agree that the auction prices are out of control, but so are the prices on "off the shelf" commercial sets.

This is a fair point. If one has an enclosure already, and you use the fuel kit to siphone from 50 gallon barrel they offer, that looks like a good option for a known solution. Wild to see the amp ratings compared to what we know the meps can produce vs rated for. We are a bit spoiled and I am thankful to have stumbled into the mep world 5 years ago (tempus fugit!).

 

[NATCAD]

We did try running dry in normal fuel, we still got junk precipitating out in the tank and carb.

Are you going through more than 100 gallons a year in your small engines? If not I think the $0.40 a gallon more in fuel is a negligible increase in cost for peace of mind.

I mean I don't know about you but I've been using something. Finished for the day intending on using it the next day.
Then something comes up. I get distracted and forget thier is still fuel in the tank.
It ends up getting put away for 6 months-1 year.
Now when I need it again the fuel system needs a clean out.

I've switched to canned engineered fuel for small engines, I have been successful running small two stroke motors dry and using 87 octane for a couple years now, knock on wood. I am also switching where I can to electric 60v tools. Exactly as you say, I have a small roto tiller with a tecumseth engine that forgot to get emptied. Will need to see what happens with it. The tecumseth gas engine troy-bilt rototiller was put away dry and fired up fine!

 

[NATCAD]

Or here is another solution
OLD STEAM POWERED MACHINE SHOP 77 LOOKING BACK

edit - that steam man is a legend. I wish he was my neighbor and I could apprentice my son there. Reminds me a bit of joel salatin in his awsome lunacy.

I mean, if you lived next to that guy, you would still be wise to have a copy of Louis Darnells book, but it might be more of a coffee table book than a workshop book.

 

[Coug]

What do you think about running normal pump gas on small engines when you have work to do, and then running them dry for storage, or switching them to a canned fuel to clean out last hour of work?

Edit - I see Diesel addict above has said same thing, run it empty.

It really depends on the engine design. Some engines like the older briggs have a bowl on the carb that the bolt holding it on is the jet, and it's inset into the center of the bowl, effectively making it almost 1/4" above the lowest part of the bowl, and no matter how you run it, there will always be fuel left in the carb bowl.
Not quite as big of an issue with 2 strokes as they are mostly fed by diaphragm pumps.

Any small engine with a drain screw on the carb bowl it's very easy to make sure you've completely drained. I've also been known to pour denatured alcohol through the system to flush it out, then use air to finish blowing the alcohol out. The alcohol will almost entirely evaporate, and any that doesn't will be absorbed by fuel. Only issue is in a high moisture environment it can suck moisture out of the air, which is why I use the air to blow it out rather than try to let it evaporate on it's own.

The canned fuel is certainly better than regular pump fuel is for small engines, especially for running before storage. The recommendations are either fill the tank completely, or drain the system completely.
If filled completely, you want to start the engine once every month or so and run it 10-15 minutes, under a load if possible, to make sure all the passages in the carb get fresh fuel through them.

The canned fuel is stabilized ethanol free, but once opened and exposed to oxygen, it will begin to break down as well.

 

[Coug]

Coug said:
It all depends on what exactly it is you are trying to plan for, and what your expected needs are.

you could burn though that same 500 gallon tank (which in reality is about 300 gallons usable before needing refilled) in less than a week.

^this is what I would expect most to do.

It really depends on the person. It seems like the majority of standby generator owners around here are conservatives, and able to deal without all the luxuries of life if the length of outage is unknown.
On the other hand, I also know people that installed 40kw generators just so they wouldn't have to separate the electric feed for the house and the enclosed pool and that everything would work.

Coug said:
I know of people with 1000 gallon propane tanks that they bought, had installed, but then haven't touched since. Because it's 100% sealed and no oxygen, propane doesn't go bad. In 20-30 years, long after any gasoline of diesel has turned to sludge or evaporated, that propane will still be just as good to use as it was the day the tank was filled.

Yes, store as much as possible, I think propane is better for cooking with and maybe heating water with.

Propane is great for appliances, but on the other hand many people run the generator and the appliances from the same tank, and might be down to 30% or less when a major storm hits, and only have a 250 gallon tank or smaller to begin with.

And to go further into this, I did a comparison a while back when trying to decide what heat to use for winter camping.
My generator/ECU would burn several times more fuel to produce electricity to then turn into electric heat compared to my diesel potbellied stove for identical outputs. The generator burns fuel, turning it into heat and motion. That heat all gets wasted and has to be gotten rid of to the atmosphere.
Direct burning of fuel into heat is always going to be more efficient than converting it into electricity first, because there are efficiency losses during every conversion.

Coug said:
Are they good for prime power? No, they aren't. The expectation isn't for society to collapse and have no other power source or more fuel available. Unless you have a farm and store hundreds of gallons of diesel fuel, then if everything goes to crap it isn't likely all the fuel stations will be filled up with diesel to refill your gen either.

I would think that anyone who runs more than one piece road equipment would have at least 500 gallons of storage, and once you start buying fuel delivered and averaging your cost, keeping it fresh through polishing, and having some shock available in case of algae. I would think any farm with more than a loader tractor would have 1000 gallons of diesel.

It really depends on the size of the farm and the equipment. I know people with 1000 gallons of diesel stored and only one small tractor and a few trucks, and I know of people with larger farms that live near enough to a town they don't worry about it too much and only keep a couple weeks to a month supply.
Personally I've got enough fuel around at any one time for a couple hundred hours of run on my MEP-802A simply because it has a 50 gallon tank built into the trailer and I've collected a dozen Scepter fuel cans over the years that I keep filled and rotate through at least once a year.

Coug said:
My general thoughts are, if you're living off grid, then prime power is needed. If you are just looking for a backup power source for a few days to possibly a few weeks, then a propane generator will work just fine as long as you plan ahead.

I am looking for recommendations of commercial diesel prime power units that I can recommend to those that I care about given the costs of meps, assume they already store or cycle bulk diesel tanks. I have the meps already to cover my needs (and likely my neighbors).
Let me know what options there are that are reasonable cost, likely looking for 2-3 units.

In this case you're probably better off looking at used generators, and for that it's kind of hit or miss as to what is available near you, or if you're willing to buy it sight unseen and ship it in. Going for a new diesel generator these days is going to cost more than a surplus military unit for the same capabilities. Sometimes a LOT more given emissions requirements.

 

[Light in the Dark]

I mean... look at what 3600 screaming diesels go for in 2022...

Generac Portable Diesel Generator – 5 kW, Yanmar Diesel, Electric Start

Generac Portable Diesel Generator – XD5000E, 5000 Watt, 120-240 Volt, Yanmar Powered Yanmar 435 cc, 4-cycle, air-cooled, direct injected diesel engine with electric start 5500 watts of start power and 5000 watts of continuous power Large 12 gallon di

www.absolutegenerators.com

 

[NATCAD]

The maine generator posted earlier for 8k $ 12kw is available without the emissions stuff. I am going to take another look at the power requirements and maybe some 802s from LITD might get the job done.

Just in case it gets missed, my 0.02:
Heat: Wood > other fossil fuels
Cooking and hot water: Wood, Propane > other fossil fuels
Generator: Diesel. (period) Maybe a couple small gasoline ones for portability.

This assumes nat gas not available, and that you have a solar set up as well.

This stuff might be interesting, and important, and we are all likely here because we think it is both.

However it is less important than telling the people you love, that you do; and making a list off all those you hate or hated (even johnny from grade school) and forgiving them.

 

[Coug]

one downside of natural gas is where you live. Here on the West Coast is earthquake country, and when we get the big one, I expect nat gas to be turned off/unavailable for a long time while all the pipes are checked and fixed. To most people though an earthquake is something that's a minor inconvenience, and not an emergency because they've never been through a big one, and don't understand just how much infrastructure it will destroy.