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Bad Bill for Title Military Surplus Off Road Moves to Virginia Senate

98G

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Folks, this has little to do with HMMWVs. They were wanting to target 5 tons for things like having bumpers that were too high. They are wanting to target Japanese import vehicles that are starting to come in that are older than 25 years.

I will have more in the future. We're still fighting.
As written, it's ambiguous as to what will actually happen during implementation. My best guess says some people will have no problem getting unrestricted plates for everything including the off road stamped hmmwvs, while other people won't be able to get plates for their deuce or 5ton.

It's all going to come down to the discretion of the inspector. It's all going to depend on who you get that day....
 

MaverickH1

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As written, it's ambiguous as to what will actually happen during implementation. My best guess says some people will have no problem getting unrestricted plates for everything including the off road stamped hmmwvs, while other people won't be able to get plates for their deuce or 5ton.
It's all going to come down to the discretion of the inspector. It's all going to depend on who you get that day....
The state police is swearing they will be revoking inspection licenses for inspectors that pass military vehicles. And they will know by the VIN.
 

cwajciec

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The state police is swearing they will be revoking inspection licenses for inspectors that pass military vehicles. And they will know by the VIN.
Do you mean that they can tell by the 6 digit vin? I have a 17 digit “utility truck” from AM General and I wonder if I can fly under the radar in Virginia. Sometime I probably need to transfer title to Virginia but I think I’ll wait until things cool down before trying. Thanks for all you do!
 

porkysplace

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Do you mean that they can tell by the 6 digit vin? I have a 17 digit “utility truck” from AM General and I wonder if I can fly under the radar in Virginia. Sometime I probably need to transfer title to Virginia but I think I’ll wait until things cool down before trying. Thanks for all you do!
A 17 digit VIN will probably make it easier for them to identify , part of the VIN are identifier numbers for various things on the vehicle such as model, motor, transmission ect.
A good example is the CUCV 17 digit VIN.

On the CUCV's there is a "D" in the VIN that will show in the manufacturers codes that it is military and not normal production.

5th digit = Line Description & Chassis Type
-- C = 2 Wheel Drive 1981-86
-- K = 4 Wheel Drive 1981-86
-- D = military 4/4
 

MaverickH1

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49 CFR 571.7 of the National Hwy Traffic safety should apply to all FMVs then.
The state police changed inspection wording in September of 2017 to add FMVSS stuff as a requirement. My e-mail on this issue below:

I also want to extend a heartfelt "thank you" and I want to follow up on kcobean's earlier e-mail.

In advance, I apologize for the following novel. This legislation goes very, very deep and has uncovered a great deal. And this is merely an example. In this e-mail, all quoted laws are referenced at the bottom of the e-mail.



After the hearing, Captain Maxey outlined several new and alarming things about what they will be changing (have changed) about the inspection process. First and foremost, he said that it is a requirement that the inspector finds an FMVSS sticker. He said inspectors now are not performing this function and will be re-educated or their license for inspections revoked. I have checked the entirety of the Official Motor Vehicle Safety Inspection Manual and only found references of the FMVSS in relation to requirements for school bus stop sign arms, seatbelt securement methods, Honda pink brake lights, etc. No indications whatsoever of the requirement of an FMVSS sticker.


Further, on the VA State Police Safety page, it outlines the "REQUIRED OFFICIAL INSPECTION PROCEDURE". Captain Maxey's contention that the FMVSS sticker check is first does not show up on this page, either.


I asked a number of times for which part of VA Code allows the FMVSS to be a test for condition of a safe vehicle. The closest thing I could find was in the Administrative Code 19VAC30-70-1 which states in the 2nd sentence that:


" [FONT=&quot]The program model is based on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards. Vehicles submitted for inspection
[FONT=&quot]must be compliant with Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standards applicable on the date of manufacture[/FONT][FONT=&quot]."[/FONT]


It's important to point out that according to records, all of this wording was added in September of 2017, please see the reference at the bottom of the page. Based on conversations with Captain Moxey, I would guess it was added specifically to exclude military vehicles.


For owners like myself who dotted every "i" and crossed every "t" before purchasing the vehicle by contacting various Virginia authorities (DMV, VA State Police, DEQ) and researching all law and scavenging Inspection Manuals thoroughly, I view this change as a bureaucratic power grab that will strip vehicles away from a number of unsuspecting owners across the state. Whether it's military vehicles, kit car vehicles, specially constructed vehicles, etc. Businesses have been built around the previous law and this will have a very deep impact. I have one business right by me that probably has $150,000 worth of military vehicles that will be rendered useless by this with no chance of passing. And in my own business which I just started, I would risk essentially losing a $35,000 vehicle over it.


Further, the wording of the updated 19VAC30-70-1 still shouldn't apply to former military vehicles. The key word to me is "must be compliant with FMVSS applicable on the date of manufacture". There were no applicable FMVSS regulations in place as it relates to military vehicles. Only the military safety standard. While my truck passed with flying colors in early 2017, the state police is now saying it won't next time.


The other alarming phrase in the new administrative code 19VAC30-70-1 is "date of manufacture". Captain Maxey said this is NOT the date that it left the factory on its way to the military. The VA State Police has decided that the Date of Manufacture is the day it LEAVES the military to go to civilian hands. So their contention is that a 1985 military surplus Chevrolet truck (CUCV) released for sale in 2017 has to meet the FMVSS standard of 2017 model year vehicles, of which I'm sure inspection stations have no way to effectively maintain the changes year to year in the constantly evolving FMVSS. And obviously, that truck has no chance of meeting the FMVSS of 2017.


Captain Moxey offered that this is not a problem, since all they need is just a letter of certification from the manufacturer that it meets the FMVSS. But this is not possible since by some technicalities none of the military vehicles DO meet the FMVSS and no manufacturer could honestly say that it does, especially in 2017.


As it stands, it appears that the Superintendent used his authority from VA Code 46.2-1165 to move the goalposts to purposefully exclude former military vehicles and antique imported vehicles that are gaining in popularity.


I'm hoping that there can be some wording in the new bill that either grandfathers in existing vehicles or preferably establishes clearly that no former military vehicles are required to have an FMVSS sticker or certification. Conversation would still have to be had in regards to kit cars, replica cars, specially constructed vehicles, imported cars older than 25 years, etc because many will be impacted by this change.


Thank you so much for your time, hopefully we can get this figured out.

MaverickH1


References:
Official Motor Vehicle Safety Inspection Manual: http://www.vsp.state.va.us/download...fety Inspection Manual (November 15 2016).pdf
VA State Police Inspection Page: http://www.vsp.state.va.us/Safety.shtm
19VAC30-70-1: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/admincode/title19/agency30/chapter70/section1/
Changes to 19VAC30-70-1 on September 8 of 2017: http://register.dls.virginia.gov/details.aspx?id=6509
[/FONT]
Superintendent's authority on inspections: https://law.lis.virginia.gov/vacode/title46.2/chapter10/section46.2-1165/
 

hndrsonj

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Show the representatives and state police the letter exempting MV's from FMVSS....
 

Navo

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So basically.... I was about to purchase an M998 but apparently won’t be able to drive it on roads anymore, even though it currently has on road clear title. When I try to get it titled in VA there gonna deny it...
 

BKubu

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I would steer clear of purchasing a HMMWV until this issue has been decided. I believe the flood of HMMWVs that have come out with "off-road use only" titles has raised red flags with DMVs across the country. Now, they are starting to take steps to prevent them from being used on the road, and other military vehicles are being caught up with them. That's how I see it.
 

porkysplace

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I would steer clear of purchasing a HMMWV until this issue has been decided. I believe the flood of HMMWVs that have come out with "off-road use only" titles has raised red flags with DMVs across the country. Now, they are starting to take steps to prevent them from being used on the road, and other military vehicles are being caught up with them. That's how I see it.
And prices of them are most likely going to decrease greatly.
 

98G

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So basically.... I was about to purchase an M998 but apparently won’t be able to drive it on roads anymore, even though it currently has on road clear title. When I try to get it titled in VA there gonna deny it...
You'd be able to get the restricted MV plate, which allows for limited on-road use.

Or maybe anything... we have yet to see how it'll actually be implemented. Want to be the test case?
 

98G

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And prices of them are most likely going to decrease greatly.
I'll take that bet...

Condition - compare average selling price for all GP auction hmmwv's for the 2017 year, compared to average selling price for all GP auction hmmwv's for 2018. We'll define "decrease greatly" as 20% or more difference in across the board ending bid for all variants of hmmwv?

Shall we bet a year's membership to SteelSoldiers? Loser to pay the winner's membership on 05 Jan 2019? (And the ability to say "I TOLD YOU SO" early and often...)
 

tobyS

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I've emailed Indiana Senator Randy Head asking him to champion a law in Indiana that takes the fact the government has just sold several billions of dollars in equipment to us. Maybe we can be proactive, not reactive, since highly regulated states are taking the rights to use them "on road" being taken away one by one...but that any of our states may be next.

I've volunteered you all to help.
 

porkysplace

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I'll take that bet...

Condition - compare average selling price for all GP auction hmmwv's for the 2017 year, compared to average selling price for all GP auction hmmwv's for 2018. We'll define "decrease greatly" as 20% or more difference in across the board ending bid for all variants of hmmwv?

Shall we bet a year's membership to SteelSoldiers? Loser to pay the winner's membership on 05 Jan 2019? (And the ability to say "I TOLD YOU SO" early and often...)
I was refering to all those sweet OFF-ROAD ONLY HMMWV's that are being sold in the secondary market with ON-ROAD titles that won't be registered.
 

bachman502

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I have tore apart my fair share of late 70s and mid 80s Chevrolet Trucks, Suburbans and Blazers. I’ve never come across that I recall a FMVSS sticker. Can somebody enlighten me on where it is at on older vehicles? What about all the cars and trucks that have been sandblasted where there is no sticker?
 

98G

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I was refering to all those sweet OFF-ROAD ONLY HMMWV's that are being sold in the secondary market with ON-ROAD titles that won't be registered.
I can't think of a way to quantify prices there.

It's interesting to note, the places that are restricting hmmwvs and other military vehicles aren't referencing the HHA and the off road stamp. They're restricting them all. And the places that are allowing on road use are also not paying any attention to the HHA and the off road stamp.

From this, I assert that there's certainly no point paying a premium to get one without the HHA, as it plays no part in how you can use the vehicle.
 
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98G

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I have tore apart my fair share of late 70s and mid 80s Chevrolet Trucks, Suburbans and Blazers. I’ve never come across that I recall a FMVSS sticker. Can somebody enlighten me on where it is at on older vehicles? What about all the cars and trucks that have been sandblasted where there is no sticker?
according to the state police, no sticker = no normal plates. They did not indicate that they'd make exceptions for vehicles where stickers were removed.

This is going to be a nightmare to enforce.
 

tobyS

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I was refering to all those sweet OFF-ROAD ONLY HMMWV's that are being sold in the secondary market with ON-ROAD titles that won't be registered.
Did you miss the part that they will be identified by not having the 17 digit vin number? That rather well includes most of our trucks.
 
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