Bad News Georgia HMMWV Owners

[DanM7890]

Where is he OP. I am curious how HE tried to register it.

 

[jeffy777]

When I see things like this I think you knew what was implied when you bought it but didn't think it applied to you.
Or at the very least set out to find away around the conditions of sale you signed.
When I bought mine I made a plan and talked to my lawyers. We designed a plan that we I think 17 steps to. We got to step two and we were 'OK'.

So you think the conditions of the sale where got out of. Goodie. Well there were no conditions of the sale except that I do not sell the vehicle to the wrong people. Thanks for your put down of my diligence. I am a very bad person for seeking legal advise. I wish you luck in your endeavors.

 

[MaverickH1]

Your assuming the ones that refuse to title and plate it are incompetent , whereas it could very well be the ones that did title and plate it are the incompetent ones.

Negative. The concern wasn't about which party is incorrect. The concern was that there are conflicting positions within the department, and that somehow it is my fault and my burden to bear when their facts aren't straight. So I went and found one of the people who agreed with the first lady.

I can't definitely say which party is wrong, but I know which one I want to be wrong.

 

[BLK HMMWV]

I'm not putting down your diligence. I question the need to feel like you had to have a plan with a lawyer to buy it . But that's your decision . Just seems a little odd . If you only signed an end use agreement and not the hold harmless agreement then I really don't understand .
I wish you luck in your endeavors as well.

 

[BLK HMMWV]

Maverick
I'll let the thread go back to you and your endeavors. I do hope for your sake that you end up with it in the end.
I was very surprised when they started releasing them again.
You seem to be stuck in the middle of the proverbial rock and a hard place.
I hope that something gives soon in your favor but I can see it going both ways.

 

[jeffy777]

I'm not putting down your diligence. I question the need to feel like you had to have a plan with a lawyer to buy it . But that's your decision . Just seems a little odd . If you only signed an end use agreement and not the hold harmless agreement then I really don't understand .
I wish you luck in your endeavors as well.

Well I deal with lawyers every day. You made a presumption that I was looking for a way out or a legal game. Well while you have some lawyers around and they owe you favors. You ask some questions. We all sit around every once in a while and talk. So I told them I was thinking of buying a HMMWV. I told them I do not understand the process of bidding and winning and possibly not being able to drive the HMMWV. So we looked at it. They gave advice and objections. They gave issues and obstructions and means to tackle the issues and objections. They were being my friend. Because they are my friends. I figured the process was going to be a ton harder, it was easy. One lawyer talked about a car he bought salvage (No title/no VIN) and all this issues he had getting it restored and titled, he was our expert (his took years to get titled and plates).

Many of you want to continue down this line that when it was sold it off road use only(acting as lawyers). You will say, 'therefore it cannot serve any other future purpose.' That was my question before I bid. Every lawyer there thought similar, if that was true it would have said "Off road use only and cannot be converted to road use." Lawyers would have put a clause as to explain future and intended use, they went to school for that. They read the Hold Harmless agreement to hold GP, IP, and DLA harmless of any value judgement of what was bought because it was salvage or trash to DLA, GP and IP. (As it should be.)

And you did put down my diligence(you stated it was my talking to lawyers was to skirt the system) and failed to think that some people live in a different world. Some people are around lawyers. It is not odd to talk to lawyers who you are friends and colleagues. I am trying to tell you and everyone. Calm down. This is a process. There is nothing wrong owning, fixing, and driving a HMMWV or any other military vehicle unless the government outright outlaws them.

I would have thought it would have made you happy to be provided some assurance that the process was examined by some lawyers. They could still be all wrong but it was not done haphazardly.

Best wishes.

 

[Lawdog734]

Where is he OP. I am curious how HE tried to register it.

I PM'd him the other day when he originally posted this. He said that he titled the vehicle with the off-road stamped SF97 and that he did this in October/November timeframe.

I know of 1 other person here in GA who received a similar letter last year - he had successfully convinced his tag office to title the vehicle with just the bill of sale - by the time his paperwork made it to Atlanta, they caught the error and he had to do what the OP was instructed to do.

I know of several people here that have successfully titled their vehicles with the off-road stamped SF97. I also know of one person that attempted to (also in October'ish timeframe) and was instructed by the County Tax Commisioner that they were no longer accepting those and the state was looking into those who previously titled their vehicle using the SF97. My friend instead used a Montana title (after waiting) and was in/out in 5 minutes with a title and tag.

I've had mine titled for nearly a year using the Montana title and haven't received anything to date. I know of another who has been doing bonded titles on them for nearly two years and also hasn't had issues. This is definitely concerning, but I have to wonder if that big red stamp is what is turning the state off on these - especially since the tax commisioners procedures manual specifically says that an SF97 is adequate for registering former military vehicles.

 

[86m1028]

What y'all are failing to understand is title & registration are 2 DIFFERENT things.
WHY would the tax office NOT want to do a title transfer ?
That would be refusing to take money from you.
The government (city or state) would NEVER refuse to lighten your wallet !

 

[Lawdog734]

What y'all are failing to understand is title & registration are 2 DIFFERENT things.
WHY would the tax office NOT want to do a title transfer ?
That would be refusing to take money from you.
The government (city or state) would NEVER refuse to lighten your wallet !

Because in GA they do not title off-road vehicles. I know there is a difference, but in the case of here in GA - you can't register a vehicle without a title, so in GA they go hand in hand. The 1 exemption to this is vehicles they consider to be antiques, which even the earliest of HMMWV's doesn't qualify for.

Action said it earlier, all a title does is establish ownership - but you can't even scrap a vehicle in many places unless you have a title to sign over to the salvage yard.

 

[Suprman]

Alot of this varies from state to state. Dont order a sf-97 that you know is coming stamped off road and dont order a title like that either, that gets put that in the dmv system.

 

[rhinob]

Lets keep it clear. First, I have nothing against trying it and fully understand the feelings involved (and the cash). Unfortunately, that is not relevant here.

For those who bid on a HMMVV, paid and signed the papers,

1) was it stated clearly that you bought the vehicle with a limited off-road use only?

2) Those who tried, when talking to the DMV, did you know that the bill of sale clearly said or would say "sold under off-road only conditions"?

3) If yes did you tell the DMV people clearly when talking with them that most if not all of these vehicles came with the "sold under off-road only conditions"?

If yes on two or three of the questions above, you took a gamble intended to go against a legal contract before signing it. Legally (in a perfect world), any case in court should be kicked out very quickly against you ( I am not completely unfamiliar with laws and court cases at least here in Europe where we love to go to court on principle or for the h**l of it).

If the sellers were not clear up front with the limited use only, then you have a case against the seller ... maybe, but not against any DMV. Dito if somebody did the trick before you and sold you a titled but "limited use only" HMMVV without telling you, you have a case against the seller but not against the DMV.

If you just mentioned to the DMV you have this nice vehicle that currently is not street legal but you would like to make it street legal without mentioning the signed contract conditions, you actually might be in problems with the intent to mislead the DMV. Maybe that is going a bit far but as DMV officer, if I got involved and this little sentence has been left out or at least not stated very clearly, I would be upset about the applicant and it would go against you in a court.

Again, and as said many times before here, for the law it is completely irrelevant whether or not the vehicle is actually road worthy or not, and whether or not some other people managed to get a paper-folded boat road worthy and titled so why not you.

The first question always will be: did you sign a paper stating the off-road-only status? If yes, bad luck, go home. If no, you might have a case against the seller or the DMV, but it will cost you waaaayyyyyy more than the $ 30 000 you have in it now. It will cost you real hard cash in legal costs, in-kind in the form of the endless hours and days you will spend on it, and in health and joy of life for you, your family, and your other close ones. You will get bitter and grey hairs before it is over.

Yes, sometimes life kicks you in the teeth you just had repaired for a fortune. I can fully understand those feelings, been there over and over again.

I bought mine titled.

 

[Suprman]

One of the posters here stated he had a title. I can reg/title almost anything over 20 years old with minimal or no paperwork as long as its legit. Does not mean another state has to accept that vehicle for reg even thought I have proper road documentation in hand. But if I am properly reg in one state I can drive thru another and they have to honor my reg.

 

[Daybreak]

Howdy,
First off, there are 2 different HMMWV vehicle being sold from the government. The price will reflect that.

A special group of HMMWV that come with full regular title are the group which was already purchased and lined up for sale. That is the special high priced units. The other set are only being offered as OFF-ROAD USE only. That is the conditional contract allowing them to be sold.

The OP was attempting to get a OFF-ROAD USE vehicle on the street. The contract states that. Whether you like it or not. The hold harmless agreement is a totally different item. A auction item is being sold as is. Yes GovPlanet has that ironclad guarantee, for the said shape at the time of inspection. The hold harmless agreement will cover everything else when is comes to you stubbing your toe while on the premises.

The more stink people raise about the off-road use HMMWV being sold, they might rebuke the offer and just start scrapping them again.

It is not a DMV thing. It is a surplus HMMWV being sold to the public with a conditional OFF-ROAD USE only.

The same thing will applies to the latest HEMMTT. Some where the gov decided to stop selling them. They are shredding them. Nice ones too.

There are some fully registerable HMMWV out there. The cost shows it $$$$$$$

There are OFF-ROAD USE only HMMWV out there. They cannot be plated. Lawyer or not. That is the condition of sale. Which you agree to when you even place a bid.

off-the soap box

 

[MaverickH1]

Howdy,
First off, there are 2 different HMMWV vehicle being sold from the government. The price will reflect that.
A special group of HMMWV that come with full regular title are the group which was already purchased and lined up for sale. That is the special high priced units. The other set are only being offered as OFF-ROAD USE only. That is the conditional contract allowing them to be sold.
The OP was attempting to get a OFF-ROAD USE vehicle on the street. The contract states that. Whether you like it or not. The hold harmless agreement is a totally different item. A auction item is being sold as is. Yes GovPlanet has that ironclad guarantee, for the said shape at the time of inspection. The hold harmless agreement will cover everything else when is comes to you stubbing your toe while on the premises.

The more stink people raise about the off-road use HMMWV being sold, they might rebuke the offer and just start scrapping them again.
It is not a DMV thing. It is a surplus HMMWV being sold to the public with a conditional OFF-ROAD USE only.
The same thing will applies to the latest HEMMTT. Some where the gov decided to stop selling them. They are shredding them. Nice ones too.
There are some fully registerable HMMWV out there. The cost shows it $$$$$$$

There are OFF-ROAD USE only HMMWV out there. They cannot be plated. Lawyer or not. That is the condition of sale. Which you agree to when you even place a bid.

off-the soap box

In 5 years, how does someone determine whether a titled HMMWV that is for sale is from the ORUO lot or the legit lot? How would a DMV determine it?

 

[Chief_919]

In 5 years, how does someone determine whether a titled HMMWV that is for sale is from the ORUO lot or the legit lot? How would a DMV determine it?

Contact DLA and ask them what their records reflect as to how the SF-97 reads. SF-97's are serial numbered and controlled documents and a record of every one issued is kept by the issuing authority. Quite literally a person issuing SF-97's signs for the blank forms with the serial #'s logged and must account for every single one.

The SF-97 is the equivalent of a manufacturers certificate or origin, and when a DMV has questions about a vehicle they will often go back to the manufacturer who would have issued that COO. That happened not long ago here in NC where people were buying junk trailers with tiles and then swapping VIN #'s from those trailers onto expensive multiaxle trailers that were stolen. Part of the evidence used in the court case was the DMV showing that those VIN #s originally were issued to small single axle trailers and not the ones the people laundering stolen trailers with the VIN's has them on.

All they would have to do is ask DLA. In reality all those records are actually FOIA searchable, so you could send a FOIA to DLA right now for every AM general SF-97 they ever issued and they would have to respond with all the data.

 

[tomelroy]

If the hold harmless said. " item may or may not be roadworthy, regardless it can never be used for on highway use "off road use only", I might agree that signing the hold harmless limits the hmmwv's future use. The hold harmless does not limit it being modified/repaired to be road worthy. If it is later modified to meet a road worthy requirement of a state, I see no reason it should be denied, other than minions on power trips.

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

In 5 years, how does someone determine whether a titled HMMWV that is for sale is from the ORUO lot or the legit lot? How would a DMV determine it?

the number of years it's been titled....I have them titled from 2001.

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

Look, what none of us know is what deal the DLA made with GP on the stamping...is the stamp legal? Based on the form, it say it's void if modified, must be machine prepared. I had a DMV rep tell me this exact thing. What if I stamped X's over it? That would void it just like a stamp that can't be verified...it's all conjecture and hypotheticals AFAIC.
either way...we are at the mercy of the states and there interpretations.
i personally know a guy who walked in with a written bill of sale and walked out with plates and title, no questions asked just weeks ago...boggles the mind.

 

[Suprman]

I can do that

 

[Robo McDuff]

The "Waiver and hold harmless agreement" states

1. Buyer acknowledges that the Humvee is not roadworthy and agrees that Humvee is for
off-highway use only.

Does not say: unless made road worthy or street legal or something like "agrees that Humvee in its current condition is for off-highway use only

It states
agrees that Humvee is for off-highway use only.

How I read this is that it is for off-road use only, period.

The rest of the form is bla bla that no matter what happens, how it happened, or how good or bad the vehicle is, by signing this agreement the buyer accepts the vehicle "as is" and from hereon forward nobody except the buyer is responsible for anything that happens.

It would be better if they would have split the first point into two separate points but I am not sure if legally it would make much difference.

So some lucky early people legally for high $$$ bought an Humvee that could be titled for on-road, the rest seems to be limited to off-road unless:
- the law changes
- they do some fancy footwork
- through whatever fluke they did not sign any form that includes the "off-road" statement.

According his remarks, Maverick seems to be in the last category.

Other question from a thread from 2011 on this topic. One point is that to make it street legal, any Humvee made after 1997 has to have approved airbags. Don't know what other and older requirements there are, but installing an approved system of airbags seems like a difficult and expensive exercise to me.