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Brake bleeding problems

Ford Mechanic

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Edenton, NC
So we have good news, my friend picked up his second new master cylinder today. He installed it and bled the master cylinder with the tubes shown earlier in the thread. He said it might have taken 5 pumps and both sides were purged! He hooked the brake lines up and said it resolved all the issues with the brakes and lack of pedal! I got tied up and couldn't make it to his shop, so I'll stop by tomarrow to help him finish bleeding the brakes.
 

2deuce

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I've got a similar problem with a new MC on a new purchase M1009. A rear brake line was leaking and the PO refilled with dot 3. I blew out the lines, bench bled the new MC, hooked it up, but the rear brakes portion of the mc hardly produce any flow. The rear brakes don't work at all. At half pedal everything is rock hard, the front have pressure and lock the brakes. I cracked the lines at the mc one at a time, the rear produced a dribble and after half pedal the front produced a heavy stream. I'm thinking my new napa MC is bad. I don't know how to check this any further. I hooked up a vacuum bleeder to the rear and pulled out a quart of fluid after I manually bled them and that gave no change. There is no pressure to the rear, and no leaks. I read this thread and saw where their new MC was bad and think mine is too. Am I missing anything?

Thanks

PS I just finished bleeding a 1956 S160 International with a new Hydrovac, I can't begin to describe what a pain that was. I'm sick of brake fluid.
 

rustystud

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Did you by chance push in the little button on the proportioning valve (pressure differential valve) ? When you loose pressure the switch is activated warning you of a leak or bad brakes. This is usually a red warning light on the dash. When this happens you must "reset" the switch by pushing in this button. This valve is located on the drivers side down on the frame by the radiator.
 

cucvrus

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OK I have been down this road on an M1009 just last year. I swore I was a beginner at mechanics. Did you use a brake fluid vacuum? I worked at an M1009 for several days and could not get fluid to the rear brakes. The customer drove it into me with the rear brake reservoir dry in the master cylinder. I thought no problem. I knew he was coming and had a replacement master cylinder all bench bleed and ready to go. After 2 hours I ended up taking the guy home. I came back and worked and pumped brakes till I was tired. I went out the next day no good. I went and got my brake vacuum pump because no one was home and I had to bleed them by myself. That was all it took. It would not get the Fluid back by pumping the brakes. I don't know why. i done it many times. but no good this time around. I hope that helps. I used a mighty vac line vacuum pump and in worked like magic. Also I never seen a button to push on proportioning valve to reset the light. I never pushed any buttons when I changed brake lines. I just bled the brakes and when the pedal was firm and correct the light was out. Just saying I don't know for sure what button you are referring to.
 

infidel got me

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Cucvrus-- The button Rustystud is referring to is on the prop. valve. It is under/behind a black rubber stopper a little bigger than an eraser head. When a reservoir on a master cylinder goes empty it will activate this button/switch so that you will still have some sort of brakes, kind of a failsafe. You can simply push it back in and should reset valve. The button is a little smaller than the clicker/chrome piece of a ballpoint pen and is located behind/underneath black rubber stopper
 

cucvrus

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I don't doubt it is there I just never had to reset one. I just corrected the brake issue and the light went away. It may reset itself when the pressure is correct. ???????.
 

Assel

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Germany Schwarzwald-Baar
I had the same issue with my new MC, replaced it due to wrong fluid of a PO. also replaced the prop.valve and the pedal was spongy at first 1/3 then I drove it around assuming it came from the new brake rotors & pads I installed aswell. it was there for a long time, brakes were good, the rear could´ve been better but it braked good.

When I got to a little offroading yesterday and got slowly into a mudhole my front wheels locked due to the slippery ground, I got through the hole few times, locking sometimes all 4 wheels when braking. When I got back to the road I braked at a traffic light and the brakes where like 50% better...tried few times, brakes are better than the weeks before ! I remembered I read a post where someone mentioned that you have to lock the wheels while braking to place the new pro.valves in middle position.... I dont know how exactly this worked but my brake is perfect now
 

2deuce

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portland, oregon
Cucvrus, I first tried the 2 man method, I started in the rear. It took many, many pumps before any fluid showed. I thought something was wrong. The rear never flowed what I expected. I went to the front and they bled out normally. Since dot 3 and 5 got mixed I went with the cheaper, heavier dot 3. I figured the 3 would push out the lighter 5 out of the system. I bled out the front until the fluid was clear dot 3. The pedal had no resistance until the halfway point where the front brakes become instantly hard. There is no transition point. The rear wheels will spin by hand with the pedal at the hard halfway point and the front brakes lock up hard when the halfway point is reached, also nothing before that point front or rear. I tried bleeding the rear again, but could not get anything but a half teaspoon per pump and it barely flowed out the bleeder. I thought possibly there was still air in the rear but the front would not let the pedal travel so I hooked up the mity vac and vacuumed out a half quart each side, had clear fluid each side, with no change, still a soft pedal and I can turn the brake drum by hand. So now I cracked the line at the MC. The rear yields the same volume I got at the rear bleeder. The front provides nothing until the halfway point where the pedal is hard and at that point fluid flows very strong like I would expect. I think this MC is bad, but I'm asking here because this is already the 3rd MC i picked up from napa. The first was wrong, the second was closer except the reservoirs were reversed, so I delivered the original and got this one by sight matching. I just bought the mity vac and it works very well, clean and easy, I will use that every time from now on.

Rustystud, because I get next to nothing from the MC small reservoir that provides the rear brakes at the MC, I would say that takes the proportioning valve out of the equation. Do you concur? I did not know about the reset button but I have set brakes by locking them up before. That info and where it is located is good to know. You seem knowledgeable on other vehicles and I have a question about my 1956 International. The rear brake shoes were saturated with brake fluid and had leaking seals. I cleaned them as best as I could knowing they would be grabby. I use the truck only for hauling firewood so I thought I could live with some grabbyness as the shoes had no wear and I was low on cash. I needed the truck badly for a haul out and I thought the brakes might grab when empty and they do, but when the truck is loaded is where I found the surprise. There is no feel, they grab instantly with the lightest pedal. When empty I have a little feel. The S160 is a 2.5 ton truck with duels. Can you explain what is going on here? as it isn't making sense to me. All I know is I made a big mistake by not getting new shoes.

Thanks to all!
 
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the skull

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mt victory ohio
Just asking, has anyone considered that maybe the rubber brake lines have collapsed?
I had a 75 GMC that did that. It applied the brakes but wouldn't release unless you
cracked the bleeder screw
 

Ford Mechanic

Active member
1,805
6
38
Location
Edenton, NC
Just asking, has anyone considered that maybe the rubber brake lines have collapsed?
I had a 75 GMC that did that. It applied the brakes but wouldn't release unless you
cracked the bleeder screw
Normally with a collapsed line you still have hard pedal. Just no release.
 

Ford Mechanic

Active member
1,805
6
38
Location
Edenton, NC
2 deuce you still have a bad mc. Same issue exactly that led me to start this thread. These are older vehicles and some of the parts have sat on the shelf for a long time. Save your self some time on the next one and bench bleed it before installing or at least before hooking up the lines. You can check your flow that way.

I personally haven't had good luck with the vacuum bleeders. I have the same mity vac tool kit. I normally find that it sucks air around the threads on newer vehicles.
 

rustystud

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Location
Woodinville, Washington
Cucvrus, I first tried the 2 man method, I started in the rear. It took many, many pumps before any fluid showed. I thought something was wrong. The rear never flowed what I expected. I went to the front and they bled out normally. Since dot 3 and 5 got mixed I went with the cheaper, heavier dot 3. I figured the 3 would push out the lighter 5 out of the system. I bled out the front until the fluid was clear dot 3. The pedal had no resistance until the halfway point where the front brakes become instantly hard. There is no transition point. The rear wheels will spin by hand with the pedal at the hard halfway point and the front brakes lock up hard when the halfway point is reached, also nothing before that point front or rear. I tried bleeding the rear again, but could not get anything but a half teaspoon per pump and it barely flowed out the bleeder. I thought possibly there was still air in the rear but the front would not let the pedal travel so I hooked up the mity vac and vacuumed out a half quart each side, had clear fluid each side, with no change, still a soft pedal and I can turn the brake drum by hand. So now I cracked the line at the MC. The rear yields the same volume I got at the rear bleeder. The front provides nothing until the halfway point where the pedal is hard and at that point fluid flows very strong like I would expect. I think this MC is bad, but I'm asking here because this is already the 3rd MC i picked up from napa. The first was wrong, the second was closer except the reservoirs were reversed, so I delivered the original and got this one by sight matching. I just bought the mity vac and it works very well, clean and easy, I will use that every time from now on.

Rustystud, because I get next to nothing from the MC small reservoir that provides the rear brakes at the MC, I would say that takes the proportioning valve out of the equation. Do you concur? I did not know about the reset button but I have set brakes by locking them up before. That info and where it is located is good to know. You seem knowledgeable on other vehicles and I have a question about my 1956 International. The rear brake shoes were saturated with brake fluid and had leaking seals. I cleaned them as best as I could knowing they would be grabby. I use the truck only for hauling firewood so I thought I could live with some grabbyness as the shoes had no wear and I was low on cash. I needed the truck badly for a haul out and I thought the brakes might grab when empty and they do, but when the truck is loaded is where I found the surprise. There is no feel, they grab instantly with the lightest pedal. When empty I have a little feel. The S160 is a 2.5 ton truck with duels. Can you explain what is going on here? as it isn't making sense to me. All I know is I made a big mistake by not getting new shoes.

Thanks to all!
First off the proportioning valve is down the line from the Master cylinder. The valve can be reset by stabbing the brakes "sometimes" but not all times. The best way is to manually push in the button. This valve actually "blocks" the flow of brake fluid, so unless it is reset you will have a terrible time trying to bleed the brakes. Second the 56 IHC brakes are "glazed" now due to the brake fluid saturation. You can try and heat them with a "heat gun" to burn out the fluid and then sand them with course sandpaper if you do not have any cash, but the right way is to replace them.
I still love old IHC trucks. I served my apprenticeship at the IHC dealership in Seattle.
 
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