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This is a repository for the information I'll be uploading on splitting the single circuit brakes and modifying the air system.
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Brake system splitting and air system modifications.
- Thread starter DUUANE
- Start date
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Hello boys and girls. Here is the result of this evenings finger painting.
This is the schematic for the air system side of what i am planning. It includes Bendix numbers for all the related valves required except for the foot valve and safety valves at the tanks and compressor. Those numbers will follow with the brake chamber and master cylinder info.
Plastic air line comes in an assortment of colours so it should be pretty simple to keep the connections straight.
The challenge for the installer (me) will be to locate the relay and quick release valves as close as possible to the brake chambers with equal length deivery lines to the service chambers on the rear axles so they hit (synchronize) at as close to the same time as possible. With 2 shoe adjusters per wheel it'll be splitting hairs imho, as the brake adjustment tollerances will have a much greater effect than an extra 4" of air line. But we will do our best to bring this up to NASA specs.
This also will make it possible to hook up a modern s-cam brake trailer, however, because we have a hybrid braking system on the truck(tractor) i will most likely plumb an adjustable pressure regulator in the primary (green) delivery line to the TP-3DC valve as a trailer contol to ballance braking for load/no load when i get far enough to do that. It will function the same as an electric trailer brake controler.
Another thing i would like to add are primary and secondary application gauges.
I hope this gives a clear picture of whats cookin in my head.
Please let me know what you see that could be improved and what your thoughts are.
Cheers
This is the schematic for the air system side of what i am planning. It includes Bendix numbers for all the related valves required except for the foot valve and safety valves at the tanks and compressor. Those numbers will follow with the brake chamber and master cylinder info.
Plastic air line comes in an assortment of colours so it should be pretty simple to keep the connections straight.
The challenge for the installer (me) will be to locate the relay and quick release valves as close as possible to the brake chambers with equal length deivery lines to the service chambers on the rear axles so they hit (synchronize) at as close to the same time as possible. With 2 shoe adjusters per wheel it'll be splitting hairs imho, as the brake adjustment tollerances will have a much greater effect than an extra 4" of air line. But we will do our best to bring this up to NASA specs.
This also will make it possible to hook up a modern s-cam brake trailer, however, because we have a hybrid braking system on the truck(tractor) i will most likely plumb an adjustable pressure regulator in the primary (green) delivery line to the TP-3DC valve as a trailer contol to ballance braking for load/no load when i get far enough to do that. It will function the same as an electric trailer brake controler.
Another thing i would like to add are primary and secondary application gauges.
I hope this gives a clear picture of whats cookin in my head.
Please let me know what you see that could be improved and what your thoughts are.
Cheers
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- 455
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- Location
- Qualicum Beach BC
Brake chamber and master cylinder info.
Had to edit this. Type 16 chambers are only available as disc brake piggybacks. Not suitable for what we need.
A type 24 brake chamber coupled to a 1.75" bore master cylinder will deliver 1000 psi of line pressure at 100psi max air appliction. The M105 trailer uses a 1.0625" bore master for 4 wheel cylinders so a 1.75" bore master should be more than fine for even the 15307 1.5" wheel cylinders.
Some master cylinder candidates;
DYNAMIC FRICTION 35571022
Application 1980 international S1724; Manual brakes
Has a 4 bolt mount and a screw type filler port cover that would easily lend it's self to a custom cap with banjo bolt for an extended breather and/or additional remote reservoir for more fluid capacity. This one also looks to have 3 bosses for an alternate mounting method that may be usefull for hanging quick release/relay valves.
It looks like this might be the same as our stock master cylinder. I'll have to confirm the bore when i remove mine.
or
CENTRIC 13079013
Application 1983 Ford L series truck with 429 gas
Has a super solid 4 bolt mount and the same screw type fill cap.
A smart feller could add a gizmo to the extended breather/reservoir line to apply regulated shop/truck air for 1 man power bleeding.
Had to edit this. Type 16 chambers are only available as disc brake piggybacks. Not suitable for what we need.
A type 24 brake chamber coupled to a 1.75" bore master cylinder will deliver 1000 psi of line pressure at 100psi max air appliction. The M105 trailer uses a 1.0625" bore master for 4 wheel cylinders so a 1.75" bore master should be more than fine for even the 15307 1.5" wheel cylinders.
Some master cylinder candidates;
DYNAMIC FRICTION 35571022
Application 1980 international S1724; Manual brakes
Has a 4 bolt mount and a screw type filler port cover that would easily lend it's self to a custom cap with banjo bolt for an extended breather and/or additional remote reservoir for more fluid capacity. This one also looks to have 3 bosses for an alternate mounting method that may be usefull for hanging quick release/relay valves.
It looks like this might be the same as our stock master cylinder. I'll have to confirm the bore when i remove mine.
or
CENTRIC 13079013
Application 1983 Ford L series truck with 429 gas
Has a super solid 4 bolt mount and the same screw type fill cap.
A smart feller could add a gizmo to the extended breather/reservoir line to apply regulated shop/truck air for 1 man power bleeding.
Attachments
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Looking at this so far, I would think a resourcefull person could get this done for $1300 CAD maybe less. I'm currently converting a single axle C60 to hydromax and i have a grand in the reman booster (core charge
) and master alone.
The issue i see with a hydromax conversion on a tandem is the difference in volume between the front circuit and the tandems.
Thats why I'm going down this road, as well as the extra redundancy and the possibillity of keeping the stock brake pedal. If i can keep the stock pedal, ill be a happy camper.
More to come.
) and master alone.The issue i see with a hydromax conversion on a tandem is the difference in volume between the front circuit and the tandems.
Thats why I'm going down this road, as well as the extra redundancy and the possibillity of keeping the stock brake pedal. If i can keep the stock pedal, ill be a happy camper.
More to come.
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Drawbacks.. The main drawback i can see to this system is you wont have an indicator of brake wear/adjustment by pedal height.
As with any high performance system it will require us to level up as operators and mechanics and treat these vehicles as you would an S-cam truck. Daily pre trips and regular PM.
What will be required at initial set up/PM is this.
Chock wheels, release the spring brakes, perform wheel brake adjustment to specs.
Install brake chamber push rod indicators on all 3 chambers.
Make the most of the shop broom handle and make a max service brake application and hold, measure and make note of push rod travel. Monitor at pre trips. Keep rod travel to a minimum, wheel brake adjustments in the goldilocks zone. With the spring brakes appied you'll get an at a glance indicator of adjustment on the tandems at daily pre trip.
Will extra 200psi max Hydraulic system pressure make an issue? TBD . Will have to do a burst test with some brake hoses.
As with any high performance system it will require us to level up as operators and mechanics and treat these vehicles as you would an S-cam truck. Daily pre trips and regular PM.
What will be required at initial set up/PM is this.
Chock wheels, release the spring brakes, perform wheel brake adjustment to specs.
Install brake chamber push rod indicators on all 3 chambers.
Make the most of the shop broom handle and make a max service brake application and hold, measure and make note of push rod travel. Monitor at pre trips. Keep rod travel to a minimum, wheel brake adjustments in the goldilocks zone. With the spring brakes appied you'll get an at a glance indicator of adjustment on the tandems at daily pre trip.
Will extra 200psi max Hydraulic system pressure make an issue? TBD . Will have to do a burst test with some brake hoses.
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rustystud
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You will need another R-12 valve for the front axle. Also another Primary air tank up there too with safety "one-way" check valves installed in all primary lines.
If you want I'll try and find some of my Semi-Truck air system diagrams.
If you want I'll try and find some of my Semi-Truck air system diagrams.
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- Qualicum Beach BC
My reasoning was that by supplying the front system from the foot valve through a qr valve vs relay, that the tandems would start to apply a hair before the fronts to aid vehicle stabillity and reduce front axle lockup, but the front should release at the same time as the rears.
The foot valve supplies air to the primary and secondary systems at the same time. I cant see a need to parallel in a primary circuit to the front. Seems it would defeat the isolation of the primary and secondary in case of a faliure.
Why extra check valves? The only scenario i can see where they would do anything would be if you had a leak internally in the foot valve between secondary and primary supply air.
Downstream of the foot valve signal air needs to return to the the fv to vent, downsteam of the qrv and rv air has to come back to them to vent. Cant have any checks there.
Im not being contrary, just trying to understand.
The foot valve supplies air to the primary and secondary systems at the same time. I cant see a need to parallel in a primary circuit to the front. Seems it would defeat the isolation of the primary and secondary in case of a faliure.
Why extra check valves? The only scenario i can see where they would do anything would be if you had a leak internally in the foot valve between secondary and primary supply air.
Downstream of the foot valve signal air needs to return to the the fv to vent, downsteam of the qrv and rv air has to come back to them to vent. Cant have any checks there.
Im not being contrary, just trying to understand.
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rustystud
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The check valves need to be installed in front of the air tanks. Just think of a stream of water. No water can be allowed to come back up-stream. Of course that is USA regulations. I don't know about Canadian laws.
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There are one way checks at the inlets of the primary and secondary tanks. The symbols with the arrows. I'd like to see the diagrams of the what and why in your US regs.
The only other system common up here is the L75 off road system that has a third tank that in the event of a faliure, acts to supply air to modulate the spring brakes so you dont go into a skid with the brakes locked on. Its counter intuitive though. Stepping on the brake pedal RELEASES the braking effect of the spring brakes. Would be a hell of a thing to try and unlearn regular braking habits while things are rapidly going wrong.
Of course there is anti lock and that jazz as well but its just added to a dual system.
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canadacountry
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I don't really have a lot to say for here in specific but i'll just add that with regarding to airbrakes in general - I know there is also the matter of a computer-controlled "self-learning" electronic valve to the trailer supply line, I don't know exactly how it works as I hadn't yet figured out finding an actual guide to it but from what I can see .. if after one/few initial applications the computer decides that the trailer appears to be causing insufficient difference in tractor's braking power then it would retard the trailer supply line to a mild percentage instead of conventional 100%, causes a lot less issues with not skidding your light/empty trailer much in particular
rustystud
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I looked for my old manuals today. Sadly, they got thrown out during last spring's house cleaning.
I totally forgot about that. Now I remember thinking "why keep all these old manuals that I will never use again. There just using up space and collecting dust" . I did keep all my "Cummins Engine Manuals" though.
I totally forgot about that. Now I remember thinking "why keep all these old manuals that I will never use again. There just using up space and collecting dust" . I did keep all my "Cummins Engine Manuals" though.
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Story of my life too. I tossed so many things in the move last year. It'll be the better part of this year till i can start reorganizing after construction is completed. Then I'll know all the things that slipped through my fingers.
Thanks for looking though
Thanks for looking though
rustystud
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You know what is so frustrating ? I had those manuals for YEARS and never used them . The moment I tossed them away I needed them ! This has happened to me several times now. It's gotten to the point that I'm afraid to throw away anything anymore. In fact I have these old 1955 Cadillac and Pontiac bellhousings and extension housings for the HydraMatic laying around, getting in the way but I'm afraid as soon as I throw them into the scrap bin someone will ask if I have them ! If I leave them outside they will get rust on the machine surfaces and be useless. So they just take up shop space.Story of my life too. I tossed so many things in the move last year. It'll be the better part of this year till i can start reorganizing after construction is completed. Then I'll know all the things that slipped through my fingers.
Thanks for looking though