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Building and or Buying Panasonic ToughBooks Thread

tim292stro

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So the third time around being asked, I figure I should start a separate thread so I don't have to keep repeating myself - I don't mind, but it may be faster for new comers this way. I also chose this location since it directly relates to non-military-vehicle equipment, but equipment which is still found in military vehicles, camps, and field deployments. Further I chose the Aux Equipment forums rather than the Conversations forum to retain the ability to edit in case we find bad information is posted here.

  • First ground rule - as per the general forum rules, this thread may not be used to collude on who's buying what or what price they should put forth on an item. I don't want this thread locked, I'll ask moderators and admins to simply delete any errant posts and warn the users in the usual fashion.
  • Second ground rule - this isn't a classified section, please don't treat it as such. Do not post that you have parts available here, or a link to a classified ad where you have parts. That's what the classified section is for, and the "Today's Posts" feature of the site does for you. Again I'll ask moderators and admins to simply delete any errant posts and warn the users in the usual fashion.

For both of these ground rules I will try to keep watching this thread to report posts I don't feel meet these guidelines. As should be obvious but I'll repeat anyway, all other rules for the forum still stand - I just want to emphasize these two points very clearly before we get started.


Finally, in the interest of full disclosure - at the time of writing this thread, I am/was in the employ of Nvidia Corporation. Please read my disclaimer in my signature - it's funny, but I'm very serious about that. I am not here to talk about my job, or anything related to my company it products, plans, politics, etc... Please respect that this is about Panasonic ToughBooks, and I'm not bringing any company proprietary knowledge to the discussion.
 
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tim292stro

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What specs do you need?

As the title of this post says, what specs do you need?

Think about what you are going to do with a computer rather than just what you can do with it. These are good questions to get started with, and be honest with yourself on the answers:
  • What specific software are you planning to use?
  • Does that software need any specific hardware support (GPS/GNSS, certain memory requirements, special video capabilities, etc...)?
  • Does the software require a specific operating system (Windows, Linux, Mac-OS)?
    • Does the operating system have any specific requirements (32-bit, 64-bit, memory, special video capabilities, etc...)?
  • Do you have any special requirements for the hardware (outdoor use, weather resistance, temperature ranges, etc...)?


Web browsing does not need much computer at all. Terrible smart phones from 5 years ago, 32-bit, <1GHz single core CPU, with 2GB of memory or less can successfully browse the internet - worry more about the Operating System (OS) than the browser, and how you're getting connected to the internet. MP3 playback doesn't take much power either, you more need to worry about the requirements of the OS than the MP3 player software and how much space you need for local files. Opening PDFs, again worry more about the OS and storage space.

Here is a link, as an example, of requirements for an operating system "Windows 7". 1GHz or faster 32-bit or 64-bit CPU, 1GB of RAM for 32-bit 2GB for 64-bit, 16GB (32-bit) or 20GB (64-bit) of HDD space.

Here is a link, as an example, of requirements for a browser "Firefox 36.0.1". 512MB RAM, 200MB HDD space, CPU supporting SSE2. It's important to note these requirements (and really any installed software) are ON TOP of what the operating system needs.

You want to design your specifications with some headroom, if you need 2GB for the OS, and you want to run a browser (512MB) and play a DVD, and use a PDF reader, you are going to need more than the minimum for each - you are going to need the total required for each plus about 50% so that the OS can move things around as it works on them.

Have you ever watched: "Hoarders: Buried Alive"? You don't want your RAM (system memory) to be that full all the time - same thing with your hard drive. You need to have space left, from my experience, if a Windows machine gets over about 90% full on a hard drive it becomes very slow and nearly unusable... If you run too many applications at the same time which uses more memory that you physically have installed to run all of your applications, your OS will use a form of "credit" called swap files, where it will literally take things out of memory and move it to the hard disk while it works on something else. Your hard drive is roughly 1000x slower than system memory - you can think of this as the difference between opening a drawer and pulling out a fork in a nice clean room, or having to take nearly everything out of a room and move it into the hall to find a fork on the floor, then have to put it all back in the room so you can walk down the hall again with the fork. Very, very slow and inefficient that way.

Playing DVDs starts to get you into some obvious hardware requirements, you need a DVD-ROM to read DVDs, you need DVD player software (PowerDVD, Windows Media Center, VLC, etc...) - each of those programs has its own requirements.
 
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tim292stro

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What is Available

[stupid_comment] Some are cheap... [/stupid_comment]

It's also easy to look out there and see a ready to run machine for $475. If you have no computer skills, this may be where you have to go, but I'd still recommend taking a partner with some knowledge to get advice from.
 
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tim292stro

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What is fixable and upgradable, and some things which aren't

Basically anything can be replaced, you just need a replacement part and a bit of time an patience.

A few examples of things I commonly see listed as broken for ToughBooks for sale:
  • LCD screen cracked
  • LCD screen scratched
  • LCD backlight out, flickering, or orange color
  • LCD hinge broken
  • Dead or mis-calibrated touchscreen
  • Cracked plastic trim pieces
  • Memory door missing
  • Missing IO connector doors
  • Hard drive and/or caddy missing
  • DVD-ROM missing
  • Battery missing or won't hold charge
  • Power pack missing
  • Key(s) missing from keyboard
  • Keyboard missing
  • Wear on touch-pad
  • Stylus missing
  • "Powered on to BIOS only" (no OS, probably because it doesn't have a hard drive and or caddy)
  • Handle missing or broken
All of the above things can actually be fixed, either by repair or replacement of the parts involved.

Things that can be upgraded include:
  • Hard drive capacity - 2.5" SATA comes in anything from 20GigaBytes (GB), all the way up to 1TeraByte (TB, roughly 1000GB) and soon more.
  • Memory - depending on what the chipset can do memory can be from 512MB (0.5GB) all the way up to 8GB and more on newer models
  • Backlight - there are LED conversions out there which replace the 1000nit fluorescent tube with white LEDs at around 1200nit. If you bought a 500-nit machine, you can get to 1000+nit this way.
  • Keyboard - there are various versions of keyboards, some rubber/water-resistant, some backlit, some neither.

More to add later...
 
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tim292stro

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Learning the "Zen" of buying things

As a person visiting this website/forum, you may or may not have experience buying items at auction - but it is likely that you have at least once purchased something in your life. This post is intended to "chill you out" a bit, get you using your head, not thinking like your wallet is on fire, or that "I NEED THAT THING NOW!!!" :jumpin:.

In survival, there is the concept of "the rules of three":
  • 3 minutes without air
  • 3 hours without shelter
  • 3 days without water
  • 3 weeks without food.

Take a moment an look there where they have Military Vehicles listed, and ToughBooks - nowhere. I consider the above rules of three as "needs", anything outside of the above list is a "want". Wants can wait, so patience is the name of the game.

Take these two hypothetical machines:

1) CF-30 Mk2, Boots to BIOS (unlocked), 4GB memory, no hard drive caddy or hard drive, has battery, missing a few keys, has power pack, all plastics in good shape. Price: $75
2) CF-30 Mk2, BIOS Locked, 2GB memory, has 60GB hard drive and caddy, missing battery and power pack, keyboard has all keys, scratched screen. Price: $75

Which one is the better buy? In this case, the BIOS being locked on #2 means the system won't boot to an OS do to a security setting that wasn't wiped by the previous owner. That's a red flag. #1 is going to need a hard drive caddy, you can't install a hard drive without one in these do to connector incompatibility, and a new keyboard. The great news on #1 is that the case is in good shape and it boots - that's a big deal. So is the functioning screen/backlight, if the listing or ad has a picture of the machine in the BIOS screen that's a win for you because it tells you a few things (here's just a random one I'm grabbing from eplace):
CF-30_BIOS_Screen.jpg

I have arrows pointing to most important details you'd see, but here they are again:
  • The system boots!!! It's obvious that the system will at least function in the basic form if you see this screen, usually if there is something horribly wrong with the platform, it can't get this far.
  • The screen works!!! People look at computers so much during their day that this obvious data-point can be missed. There is no obvious problems with this screen, and the back-light looks to be working well.
  • Now we can look at some good stuff:
    • There is no Hard Drive installed. Watch out for this, it is the security policy of many government agencies to remove and shred hard drives for security reasons. There is no other way to guarantee the security of the data to this level (total physical destruction). UNFORTUNATELY... most computer techs are so pressed for time (doing literally 100's of these often), they don't bother to remove the drive form the $50-120 hard drive caddy. This will cost you later if you have to buy them - cheap ones are available from China, but they don't often have the heater sleeve which makes it possible to boot at lower than freezing temperatures - that can be another $50 or more...
    • There IS a DVD-ROM installed!! These can cost you between $20-75, depending on how patient you are an how impatient the seller is. If your plans include playing DVDs on the road, or installing software outside the home, this is a killer option to have.
    • There is only 1GB of memory installed. This will be a problem if you want to run a moderately modern version of Windows (i.e. Win 7) - some Linux versions can tollerate memory this small, but remember the analogy of the hoarder...
    • The chipset is L2400. For the non-computer person this will likely mean less than zero to you. For the computer person, this is something you can put into Google search, and one of the earlier hits is the actual Intel product page. These pages have nice things like Intel Technical datasheets, which if you read them tell you what the chipset and CPU can do, not just what Panasonic advertises it is intended to do. This is where we find nice nuggets like the Mk2 and Mk3 CF-30 chipsets (L7500, and L9300 respectively) can support up to 8GB of RAM, whereas Panasonic says the max is 4GB - they even mention this in the BIOS screen when you install more than 3GB that a 32-bit system will only be able to use 3.5GB. This is a broadly known limit of 32-bit OS'es, and if you're installing a 64-bit OS on a compatible machine (one which can run 64-bit software) the limit doesn't apply!
    • The full model number. There is a sticker on the bottom of the machine which has this information, but getting a screenshot of the BIOS is much more informative in a single picture. You can do a search for a CF-30 model decoder, and there is more that one resource which will help you figure out exactly how this machine was configured by the factory. This is very helpful if the person listing the machine has no idea what they have, or is more secretarial than technical. We would see that this pictured machine is a Mk1 (L2400) with WiFi, 500-nit (half sunlight readable) non-touchscreen, 80GB HDD 1GB RAM, no BlueTooth, no GPS, no WWAN (celluar modem), Windows XP, for the North American market.
    • Accumulated Hours on the machine (and so also by association the back-light). In this example, the machine only has 1430 hours on a Mk1. They started selling the Mark 1 in late 2010 - so that's about four years, or about 4-hours of use a day every day. VERY light usage - anything under 5,000 hours is "light", 5K-15K is "moderate", >15K is "heavy" to "very heavy", I have seen MK2 (2011) machines with over 25K hours on them. That's a lot of hours, especially considering that you can usually expect at most only 30K hours on the back-light before it fails.


Now take these two hypothetical machines:

  1. Mk2, good shape, BIOS picture in ad, Buy It Now $75 Free shipping
  2. Mk2, good shape, BIOS picture in ad, current bid $50 + $15 shipping (next bid $50.50)

I'm not going to tell anyone what to do in this case, but in my opinion the Buy It Now serves the "want it now" mentality. One might read the "free shipping" as a great deal versus the $15 for the other one, but do the math here - $75 is not cheaper than $65. If you're patient and the other bidders (if there are any) are maxed out, wouldn't it be interesting to put a bid on the $65 one and have the $75 one as a backup if the bidding one goes to $75.01? Even with added shipping you could be saving $10 on the total purchase. Of course you would have to look carefully at each add, I have only rarely seen two machines that close - there are usually other factors that drive price (obviously condition and included components being the major one), imagine saving that $10 then getting the until and finding out the seller listed it as no battery, but it came with one. Little price savings here and there can actually end up saving your bacon later - for example buying a hard drive at $55 vs $85 could save you the cost of a power pack...


Ahh so.. but now we get into the ZEN part of buying, and that is the state of mind when bidding.

I like to set a budget once I get my specifications, then try to buy to that budget. I try for a while to buy at that budget, and this can mean going without whatever it is I want to buy for a while. As an example, I wanted a computer workstation at home with dual Intel XEON X5690 CPUs - but I wanted to pay $500 or less for both of them. MSRP when new for these was $2500 EACH - so I had to wait a while. Just a few weeks ago, I bought a pair for $350. It just took two years of patience before the price matched my budget. The same can be said for ToughBooks and other things, patience on your as the buyer end can in some cases find you looking at the desperation of others to sell. This is in general the case with these ToughBooks we are looking at now. Most of these have been bought by liquidators or surplus companies where it's either "sell to someone who can use it, or send to scrap". They take in tens if not hundreds of these at a time, and have to either turn them around quickly for some cash or just get rid of them at scrap value.

In this sense you can see that it's not that unlike what we see with military vehicles!!

Don't get swept up in the heat of bidding. If you find "that machine" that fits all of your needs, I'll go ahead and wager that it matches a whole bunch of other people's needs too - and that's how you get into a bidding war. But it's right there!!!! yeah, but if it goes up to $500, there's probably one you could do some work on at a buy it now price of $80 to get to where that machine ends up, and you'll only have $120-$275 into it. So the sucker who won that machine just blew twice the money owing to excitement, rather than having enough money to buy two!

I recommend watching a few just go to someone else. Sure, if its starting bid is at $0.99, put a $1 bit on it, but don't get emotionally attached to the idea of "winning". The idea here isn't to win, it's to get a functioning laptop which meets your needs, and is within your budget. If you get caught up in the bidding and spend all your budget on a base machine which needs another $50-200 in parts, you're going to feel really depressed when you have to explain that to your friends and family. So let several go, price out what you'd need to buy to fix all the things which are wrong on the one you're looking at, subtract that and the combined shipping from your budget and place that max bid. If it goes above your max, let it go!! It doesn't fit your budget!


The basic concept of Zen (and I'm vastly over simplifying and paraphrasing), is to acknowledge and accept things as they are, and then to understand them as they are. Getting caught up in a bidding war when the little voice in the back of your head is saying "but we have to buy so many parts for that thing!!" is why the initial "high" of winning the bidding battle is quickly replaced with the remorse of the lost war for a fully operational machine that meets your needs.

With your specifications in hand, you can define your needs.
With your needs in hand, you can define what a machine is and isn't (complete, incomplete, repairable, unrepairable)
With knowledge of what a machine is, you will know if it will fit your budget (ready to run, or needs repair, plus shipping).
When you know if the machine will fit your budget or not, you can remove the emotion when bidding on an item, since you'll have a simple go-no-go line in the sand for whether you can afford it or not.
 
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srodocker

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Have my full permission. Tim is a A+ guy. Hes been working with me for the past couple of months before I took the plunge and bought a toughbook. Having got my first one up and running(yes I said first one many more will be bought im thinking) Tim was always a message away and even today a phone call away from helping me get everything squared away.

These can be used to download the manuals and its a heavy duty laptop to take with you underneath the truck. I will be adding a dock mount to both my cucv clone and 5 ton so I can also carry it around fully charged with me.
 

rustystud

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Have my full permission. Tim is a A+ guy. Hes been working with me for the past couple of months before I took the plunge and bought a toughbook. Having got my first one up and running(yes I said first one many more will be bought im thinking) Tim was always a message away and even today a phone call away from helping me get everything squared away.

These can be used to download the manuals and its a heavy duty laptop to take with you underneath the truck. I will be adding a dock mount to both my cucv clone and 5 ton so I can also carry it around fully charged with me.
Total agreement here too. I have all my Military manuals and all my music plus tons of other manuals and I'm still only using 1/4 of the capacity of this thing ! This will be my take along for any adventure.
 
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