California CDL: Another Clarification (long)

[jpinst]

I will tell you what I will do. If I EVER get cited myself for driving my M35 without a CDL, I will fight that,and in turn will prepare a legal memo. I will also appeal the case if I lose. I will certainly share all of that with you all.

 

[hole]

Jpinst, I agree with your thinking on this matter. There is no logical reason a CDL is needed to drive a Deuce. Alittle common sense is all that is required to understand this, of which I understand theres not much of in this socialistic state we live in. I'm just a simple carpenter but I can see theres a need to address this subject within our local MV community. How can we go about changing / ammending the law here ? I too refuse to get a CDL to drive my Deuce ( mostly because I LOATHE being told what to do by liberal law makers ) so if needed could you help / coach any of us willing to fight if needed?

 

[WillWagner]

 

[jdmcgowen]

Bob the truck and it's legal to drive in CA with Class C liscense. My father has a 3/4 ton ford diesel, and it's registered as a commercial vehicle. Can have it registered as passenger, but if he gets caught hauling anything, big fine. Bottom line California Sucks.

 

[jdmcgowen]

Call me a flip flopper, but after rereading the thread, I can see from a legal standpoint, this issue can deffinatly be argued back and forth, Thank you to all that have written in, because I live in oregon, and am planning on getting a M35. I'd like to know if I could drive it into the state legally.
John

 

[Goatwerks]

Once you go over 6000LBS GVW with 3 axles, you must get CDL in Ca.
No way around, and very expensive ticket. Others have posted about this experience.

 

[jpinst]

No Problem with that. Best place to start would be with your local MV club. Then get them to write a letter to the local state representative. Follow it up with a request for a meeting. Invite him/her to speak at one of your events.

The thing to emphasize here is that people don't own an M35 with the intention of using it for commercial purposes (usually) if they belong to a military Vehicle club. The additional costs involved, including legal liability, helath checks, and the loss of traffic school, etc run counter to the legislative intent of the law, and to its reccreational use.

Tell him/her what is really going on--the trucks are bought by enthusiest who restore them, then use them to share our nation's history and herritage with young people, transporting veterans in parades, static display during memorial events etc.

If enough of you approach your local reps, then others will be familiar with the issue if it ever makes it to some committee. I think the law is clear that a CDL is not needed, but its so ambiguous to the average person, then perhaps some time of exception statement is needed for clarification.

Maybe the AAA would be willing to help too if MV clubs got involved. I say this because acting in concert with a group is always going to be more powerful that as an individual. But individual follow up letter would help too. Good luck.

 

[yellobronc]

Jpinst, I agree with your thinking on this matter. There is no logical reason a CDL is needed to drive a Deuce. Alittle common sense is all that is required to understand this, of which I understand theres not much of in this socialistic state we live in. I'm just a simple carpenter but I can see theres a need to address this subject within our local MV community. How can we go about changing / ammending the law here ? I too refuse to get a CDL to drive my Deuce ( mostly because I LOATHE being told what to do by liberal law makers ) so if needed could you help / coach any of us willing to fight if needed?

 

[Apoc Bane]

jpinst ever pulled over? =)

 

[yellobronc]

http://www.steelsoldiers.com/deuce-modification-hot-rodding/66200-california-compliant-5.html

Post #49 Has all you need to know to get around 3 axle rule and RV. As for the other stuff,

 

[bajajoaquin]

It's amazing how you can miss things when you read them the first time. I just read VC 362 yesterday, and I took away that the camper needs to be permanently attached. Now, I read yellobronc's emphasis, and I see that I missed something: If it has three axles, as long as it's carrying a camper, it's a housecar. That means a pickup with a camper is not a housecar, but a deuce with one is.

So.....

If it has historical vehicle plates, it's by definition not a commercial vehicle, unless you carry something, in which case it is, by definition.

Unless you put a camper on it, when it changes back again!

(I've attached his pic of VC362 for easy reference; I hope he doesn't mind)

 

[Rustygears]

6K & 3 Needs a B. That simple. The law is clear and the English is simple. No exceptions. Intent doesn't count for s**t. The road to **** is paved with 'good' intentions.

 

[yellobronc]

It's amazing how you can miss things when you read them the first time. I just read VC 362 yesterday, and I took away that the camper needs to be permanently attached. Now, I read yellobronc's emphasis, and I see that I missed something: If it has three axles, as long as it's carrying a camper, it's a housecar. That means a pickup with a camper is not a housecar, but a deuce with one is.

So.....

If it has historical vehicle plates, it's by definition not a commercial vehicle, unless you carry something, in which case it is, by definition.

Unless you put a camper on it, when it changes back again!

(I've attached his pic of VC362 for easy reference; I hope he doesn't mind)

No problem including the document, hopefully it may help others.

others may disagree with my statemens however I stand by my research.

The whole key to that statement is "A housecar is NOT a motor trucck" All commercial writings are pertaining to motor truck, motor carrier, etc.

Use the info in whatever way you need, be prepared to fight in court if you have to, but be sure in your mind you agree fully to the "interpretation of the law.

As I noted before, all these documents reside in my truck, in a binder If i have to question them in the future.

 

[yellobronc]

6K & 3 Needs a B. That simple. The law is clear and the English is simple. No exceptions. Intent doesn't count for s**t. The road to **** is paved with 'good' intentions.

RG, not looking for a fight, but if you feel so strongly regarding this, please provide the vehicle codes that apply. Then anyone reading this in the future can take both our information and make up their own minds.

It seems like a good way to present both sides of the issue.

 

[panzerjunky]

Has anyone on this board and in Ca actualy been pulled over and cited in an m35 and if so what did they do to you?

 

[yellobronc]

Yes. Me. He followed me home, let me park the truck, gave me a $400 ticket and told me they could tow the truck. I got lucky...

End result: Converted to RV, Housecar, camper and the same CHP officer said I was good.

BTW, it was a commercial officer.

My thread on this:
http://www.steelsoldiers.com/conversations/13273-help-california-licensing-issues.html

 

[mobileauto2000]

Every day I'm happier than the day before that i moved out of California in 1995.

 

[pat038536]

I've been reading the thread on this since it does affect me.. this is what I found on 'commercial vehicle' and required licensing. Hopefully this will shed some light on the issue. Note that this applies to California only.

[FONT=&quot]V C Section 15210 Definitions[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Definitions [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]15210. Notwithstanding any other provision of this code, as used in this chapter, the following terms have the following meanings: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](a) "Commercial driver’s license" means a driver’s license issued by a state or other jurisdiction, in accordance with the standards contained in Part 383 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations, which authorizes the license holder to operate a class or type of commercial motor vehicle. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](b) (1) "Commercial motor vehicle" means any vehicle or combination of vehicles that requires a class A or class B license, or a class C license with an endorsement issued pursuant to paragraph (5) of subdivision (a) of Section 15278. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) "Commercial motor vehicle" does not include any of the following: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](A) A recreational vehicle, as defined in Section 18010 of the Health and Safety Code. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](B) Military equipment operated for military purposes by civilian and noncivilian personnel, that is owned or operated by the United States Department of Defense or United States Department of Homeland Security,including the National Guard, as provided in Parts383 and 391 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](C) An implement of husbandry operated by a person who is not required to obtain a driver’slicense under this code. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](D) Vehicles operated by persons exempted pursuant to Section 25163 of the Health and Safety Code or a vehicle operated in an emergency situation at the direction of a peace officer pursuant to Section 2800. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](c) "Controlled substance" has the same meaning as defined by the federal Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. Sec. 802). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](d) "Conviction" means an unvacated adjudication of guilt, or a determination that a person has violated or failed to comply with the law in a court of original jurisdiction or by an authorized administrative tribunal, an unvacated forfeiture of bail or collateral deposited to secure the person’s appearance in court, a plea of guilty or nolo contendere accepted by the court, the payment of a fine or court costs, or violation of a condition of release without bail, regardless of whether or not the penalty is rebated, suspended, or probated. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](e) "Disqualification" means a prohibition against driving a commercial motor vehicle. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](f) "Driving a commercial vehicle under the influence" means committing any one or more of the following unlawful acts in a commercial motor vehicle: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) Driving a commercial motor vehicle while the operator’s blood-alcohol concentration level is 0.04 percent or more, by weight in violation of subdivision (d) of Section 23152. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) Driving under the influence of alcohol, as prescribed in subdivision (a) or (b) of Section 23152. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](3) Refusal to undergo testing as required under this code in the enforcement of Subpart D of Part 383 or Subpart A of Part 392 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](g) "Employer" means any person, including the United States, a state, or political subdivision of a state, who owns or leases a commercial motor vehicle or assigns drivers to operate that vehicle. A person who employs himself or herself as a commercial vehicle driver is considered to be both an employer and a driver for purposes of this chapter. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](h) "Fatality" means the death of a person as a result of a motor vehicle accident. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](j) "Gross combination weight rating" means the value specified by the manufacturer as the maximum loaded weight of a combination or articulated vehicle. In the absence of a value specified by the manufacturer, gross vehicle weight rating will be determined by adding the gross vehicle weight rating of the power unit and the total weight of the towed units and any load thereon. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](k) "Gross vehicle weight rating" means the value specified by the manufacturer as the maximum loaded weight of a single vehicle, as defined in Section 390. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](l) "Imminent hazard" means the existence of a condition that presents a substantial likelihood that death, serious illness, severe personal injury, or substantial endangerment to health, property, or the environment may occur before the reasonable foreseeable completion date of a formal proceeding begun to lesson the risk of death, illness, injury, or endangerment. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](m) "Noncommercial motor vehicle" means a motor vehicle or combination of motor vehicles that is not included within the definition in subdivision (b). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] "Nonresident commercial driver’s license" means a commercial driver’s license issued to an individual by a state under one of the following provisions: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) The individual is domiciled in a foreign country. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) The individual is domiciled in another state. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](o) "Schoolbus" is a commercial motor vehicle, as defined in Section 545. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](p) "Serious traffic violation" includes any of the following: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](1) Excessive speeding, as defined pursuant to the federal Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act (P.L. 99-570) involving any single offense for any speed of 15 miles an hour or more above the posted speed limit. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](2) Reckless driving, as defined pursuant to the federal Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act (P.L. 99-570), and driving in the manner described under Section 2800.1, 2800.2, or 2800.3, including, but not limited to, the offense of driving a commercial motor vehicle in willful or wanton disregard for the safety of persons or property. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](3) A violation of a state or local law involving the safe operation of a motor vehicle, arising in connection with a fatal traffic accident. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](4) A similar violation of a state or local law involving the safe operation of a motor vehicle, as defined pursuant to the Commercial Motor Vehicle Safety Act (Title XII of P.L. 99-570). [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](5) Driving a commercial motor vehicle without a commercial driver’s license. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](6) Driving a commercial motor vehicle without the driver having in his or her possession a commercial driver’s license, unless the driver provides proof at the subsequent court appearance that he or she held a valid commercial driver’s license on the date of the violation. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](7) Driving a commercial motor vehicle when the driver has not met the minimum testing standards for that vehicle as to the class or type of cargo the vehicle is carrying.
In the absence of a federal definition, existing definitions under this code shall apply. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](q) "State" means a state of the United States or the District of Columbia. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot](r) “Tank vehicle” means a commercial motor vehicle that is designed to transport any liquid or gaseous material within a tank that is permanently or temporarily attached to the vehicle or the chassis, including, but not limited to, cargo tanks and portable tanks, as defined in Part 171 of Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations. This definition does not include portable tanks having a rated capacity under 1,000 gallons. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Amended Sec. 1, Ch. 504, Stats. 2001. Effective January 1, 2002.
Amended Sec. 38, Ch. 594, Stats. 2003. Effective January 1, 2004.
Amended Sec. 14, Ch. 952, Stats. 2004. Effective January 1, 2005. Operative September 20, 2005.
Amended Sec. 12, Ch. 574, Stats. 2006. Effective January 1, 2007.
Amended Sec. 7, Ch. 630, Stats. 2007. Effective January 1, 2008. [/FONT]

 

[LORENZ]

Carrying around kids and parents in the back of the troop transport with historic plates would not be considered Commercial use, correct?

Carrying around Prom kids who paid you to act like a Limo service for Prom would be considered Commercial use, correct?

Carrying around a 750 gallon load of water, and fire hoses during a SoCal Santa Ana fire season is not considered commercial use and would fall under the Personal Fire Truck Case Study, correct?

I want to carry friends and thier kids in the back as the truck was built and intended for by the Military, I would like to hire it out for Prom night, and I would like to make a slide in Fire tank. I think the Prom gig is out, but the other endevors are legit with a standard California Drivers license.

I'll save the Fire Truck for my Dodge 3500 Chassis Cab truck if I can't use the duece as a personal Fire Truck, because I know I can use the Dodge in this manner so long as I keep it under the GVWR, and don't tow more than 10,001#.

BTW, the questions are for the Lawyer on this forum, as I appreciate his willingness to help us A35 owners and he seems like a pretty logical fellow. His definition seems real clear to me and easily explained to a Judge. Troops are not Personal Property, and the truck was intended as a Troop Transport, thus it's not a commercial vehicle. Add a "Payment" or "Property" to the equation, and all bets are off when driving a A35 in California with a standard drivers license.

 

[LORENZ]

BTW, if these trucks were considered "commercial" DOT cops would have a field day checking over every antique piece of safety equipment on them. They have a field day at the entrance to the local dump when pickups come in over loaded.

With reguards to the A35, are your tires properly inflated, are there welds or cuts on the frame, are the brakes inspected, is every suspension component sound and free of defects and wear? Is there a DOT requirement for not running 2-3 decade old tires? I don't think many Dueces would pass a side of the road DOT inspection in CA. But then again, I'm not a CA commercial license holder, and I don't know squat.