Chattering starter solinoid

[LanceRobson]

My M1008, which has been used several times a week and had been an easy starting truck, has had some starting issues lately. Previous to this it started up with no issues and cold weather wasn't an issue.

About 3 weeks ago, the start relay died and was replaced with a spare OEM relay. Last Tuesday, when it was only 8 degrees, it acted like the batteries were weak and went from slow cranking to no cranking and a chattering solenoid to nothing in a few seconds.

Slaving it didn't help. It didn't get any better than the starter solenoid clicking, if that, and the generator and wait lights were dim, even while the slave cables were hooked up. The glow plugs were drawing enough power to make a deuce's alternator belts squeal, which hasn't happened before or since.

After checking the battery terminals and charging the batteries, it wouldn't crank. The starter engaged for a bit (a second or less) and it went back to chattering.

A cell by cell test showed one weak cell in each battery (a matched set of 10 year old DEKA 6TLs) so I got a fresh set ready and cleaned all the connections at the buss bars, the battery terminals, the starter, the engine ground etc.

Still, all I'm getting is the solenoid chatter. Tomorrow, I'll swap in a different starter.

Other than that, has anyone got a suggestion?

Thanks

Lance

 

[underdog]

Found this to be an interesting read.
http://www.thedieselpageforums.com/tdpforum/showthread.php?t=33505&highlight=starter

 

[LanceRobson]

Thanks. The link won't open.

Lance

 

[outsider]

Sounds like you have a bad connection OR a bad piece of wire somewhere, because you are not getting enough amperage to the starter to turn the engine over with oil that is the viscosity of syrup or even possibly tar st 8 deg.
Steve

 

[mangus580]

Lance, I would look at all the 12v connections.... Fusible Links, etc.

Its sounds like you arent getting the full 12v from the front battery.

BTW... My 1009 has started a similar thing to this... The front battery is weak. Saturday and Today both, it required a jump on that battery. I load tested it a little over a week ago, and found that its 'bad'... and then needed a jump!

I have a solargizer on it now, hoping that it will recover. The batteries arent that old.

 

[LanceRobson]

Mike. I haven't dug into the wiring diagrams. There's a link or some such between the two bus bars. It seems to be in rough shape. any idea what it is?

There are some wires with what appear to be links attached to the positive bus and running down from there. I haven't looked in another CUCV to see if they are original. Is that what Id be looking for?

I thought I was going to work on this right now but I've got to go on a service call. I'll be back in 2-3 hours.

Lance

 

[NDT]

Check the starter relay again, the one under the dash. I had the exact same problem, same symtoms. The contacts on the relay had burned. Filing the contacts fixed the problem, for now. The relay is the shiny oblong one above the gas pedal, but attached to the dash.

 

[LanceRobson]

I tried a new AC140 relay with no change. I'll try it again when I get back. It's a lot less work and a bunch cheaper than changing the starter.

Lance

 

[mangus580]

Lance... what is chattering? The relay under the dash? Or the solenoid on the starter?

 

[LanceRobson]

The starter soleniod. It is enough to feel it in the whole truck. It might be masking something at the start relay but I can't tell.

Lance

 

[mangus580]

Ah... In that case, it sounds more like not enough 24v

IF the starter relay under the dash is bad... it could cause it. You could have a loose connection down at the starter? A bad rear battery? And of course a bad starter.

Test the rear battery first as its easiest.... if that tests good, drop the starter in prep to put a new one in. You may find a loose connection down there. While its out... have someone activate and hold the key in the start position, and check the voltage for the 'trigger' wire?

 

[LanceRobson]

I cleaned all the connections at the bus bars, took out the starter and cleaned it's connections, cleaned both ends of the engine ground cable. The rear battery is good and shows 12.73 volts.

If I drop the starter again and check power at the solenoid, am I correct in assuming that I need to ground the starter housing to check the voltage?

Now that I'm back from the service call, I've got one chore to do and then I am going to pull the known good starter off my parts M1009 and put it in the M1008.

Lance

 

[mangus580]

Thats probably the easiest thing at this point... toss in a known starter.

 

[underdog]

Thanks. The link won't open.

Lance

Here is the main post. It was in reference to a vehicle that was eating starters.

What happens is that the small lead that GM used to activate the starter is just too small for the amp draw and over time it's ability to provide the required power to really pull that solenoid in properly goes away, allowing the contacts to arc and then they go away. When the solenoid is starved it can't hold the contacts tight and then they arc more and this ruins them as well as deprives the starter.

They would test good on bench but not function on vehicle.


I had a similar issue a while back with a very expensive custom auto electric shop rebuild.

What I did to solve the issue is to run the red wire from the solenoid (one that activates the solenoid when the key is turned to start) to a Ford starter relay that I mounted on the inner RH fender up by the RH battery.

Wire the relay to pull full battery power off the RH battery and then run that lead to the solenoid on the starter.

Be sure the relay is grounded good to the chassis too.

What happens is that the small lead that GM used to activate the starter is just too small for the amp draw and over time it's ability to provide the required power to really pull that solenoid in properly goes away, allowing the contacts to arc and then they go away. When the solenoid is starved it can't hold the contacts tight and then they arc more and this ruins them as well as deprives the starter.
A vicious circle

I dont mean to insult, but be reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeel sure the cables are in good order.

I have seen ground cables that were no good and they looked fine.
They usually go south in the crimp where they bolt to the engine.

The side terminal cables corode in the jacket (Red) and (Black) down in the core of the wire where you cant see it unless you cut them open.

The factory cables are in many cases soldered but not the core, only the outer area where they contact the terminal end assembly.

Once the core corrodes they lose a lot of their ability to transfer power.

Again in most cases you simply can't see it by looking at the cable while it's off the battery.

I would recommend that if the cables are over 5 years old to toss them and get some new ones. Replace the grounds as well as the positive cables. Be sure the power lead that runs from the alternator is in good order as well as the lead that runs to the chassis feed box/junction box
(Depends on the year)

Your starter is simply drawing more power than the cables can supply.

As the cable degrades the amperage draw starts to climb and you in effect get a brown out. The voltage drops off and the amperage goes up.

This results in the contacts in the solenoid arcing more and more untill the solenoid just goes CLICK

With the relay added and some fresh cables, you should be in great shape. (My 94 used to be real slow in the cold, NOT any more)

The added relay also takes a big load off the ignition switch and also allows more power to the system during starting as the solenoids power demand is now provided directly from the battery.

The starter will pull in faster, harder and will last far longer than the factory setup.

The cost is negligable to do this. Use #10 wire to run from the original to the relay and then back to the solenoid.

You can route this neatly up along the original path the heavy cable to the starter runs and tie it with tie wraps.

If you use batteries like the Optima or similar with both top and side terminlas, I would get some welding cable and some copper solder on eyes and make a set of good cables and then use the top terminals with the marine type ends that use a BOLT.

You can install these and use the provided wing nut to attach them.
Use fine strand cable and solder them in to the copper end.
Dont be temped to use a crimped connection as it will soon fall victim to the same issues.

When the solder is flowed into the eye until the cable is totally filled to the core there is no place for corrosion to start.

Even a set of new factory type cables will go a long way to help, but do install the relay setup.

To answer your question "What kills starter" Poor voltage and amperage availability.

The starter needs to have a good 12+ volts available and the ability to get a 400 amp surge to start things rolling. If the cables can't supply this then the starter just fries.

Hope this helps.

Robyn

 

[Wolf.Dose]

Starting problems

I drowe a Chevy M1009 for 16 years!
Problems with the starting harness never ocured, if nobody put its dirty fingers in the original stock harness. These cables were factory crimped and therefore pressed together the way you can NOT do it at home. The clamping arround is a mixture of lead and tin. If someone trys to do any kind of soildering on that, he is on the loosing side. The cross section is that small, that propper contacts are possible only with the factory crimping. And soildering brings acid in to the connection which reduces the cross section additionally!
Other problems possible by own experience: drive pinion (sorry if I use the wrong word, I'm just a German) is worn, will not properly spur in the wheel. Otherwise wheel is damaged (engines usually stop in the same position, so the driving gear ring is always used at the same position and thesefore typically worn out, especally by a damaged drive pinion.
Relay problems except the pre glow relay I did not experience.
I had the problem with a broken cabel inside the solenoid shwich, so the magnet did not engage the starter. Painfull at a gas station. I found it at home after taking the starter out and striping it. The solenoid was so called new from the states with less than 50 starts, it was a factory rebuild starter.
Other possible problems:
Bushings worn, so the rotor will tuch the field . It will not crank any more or very poor. Even factory supplied bushings will not mean to be out of tolerance by experiance! Other problems might be electric problems like incorrect field or rotor harness. This is to be checked by a specialist, not by a person just to know how to operate the test bench. It is someboby who can measure the stuff with classical instrumentation without computer help!
Hope this helps
Wolf from Germany

 

[LanceRobson]

Well, here's the update.

The truck starts and runs fine. I put the used, known good starter from my parts truck in.

Before I did that, I found several wires in and around the engine compartment that had been spliced with butt connectors (The darn things should be outlawed). One was the control wire to the solenoid and the "new" wire was undersized. I replaced all the butt splices with new primary wire, soldered connections and adhesive lined heat shrink tubing.

After installing the new wiper motor, heater fan motor, rotating the tires and all the other stuff on my "to do" list, it cranked right up. The #1 son helped for a few hours. As a former Army generator mechanic and heavy equipment mechanic, he's pretty handy around the shop.

I still don't know if the "old" starter was the culprit. I guess that some balmy afternoon I'll put it back in and see what happens.

Thanks to all who had input.

Randy, I'm picking your generator and trailer up at Drum. tomorrow.

Mangus; Where's the love?!. I thought you were going to bring the brood over for some smoked critter parts and homebrew. I promised the sheepdog she'd have something new to play with and she's inconsolable....

Doghead, I'll call you about the Drum pick up.

Again, thanks.

Lance