Cone washers! and Bizarre upper ball joint question

[HelluvaEngineer]

The steering on my M1009 had become terrifying with it dog walking down the road, so I'm in the process of replacing all of the front ball joints and u-joints. On the steering knuckle, I just popped the lower ball joint loose. I was about to do the top and noticed something strange. There is a flange on the bottom of the ball joint, so I presumably can't push it up with my puller. As expected, everything is rusty so it's hard to tell what's going on. Has anyone ever seen something like that before?

I can attempt to post a picture if that will help. Thanks everyone.

 

[Barrman]

TM 9-2320-289-34 Section 6-12 page 6-78 is where the M1009 ball joints are discussed. Just use a ball joint puller on each of them. The uppers have an adjustment sleeve. I don’t remember a flange on the ball joints.

 

[gringeltaube]

I don’t remember a flange on the ball joints.

Maybe just a seeger-type snap ring ??

 

[nyoffroad]

I'm not going to guess about the ball joints, but they will not cause "dog walking". Dog walking is normally caused by a frame or rear diff that is out of alignment, that causes the rear end to be offset to one side and the steering wheel to be turned to counter it.
Does this truck have a lift kit or shackle flip on it?
Have the rear leaf springs been changed?
Springs put in backward or lift blocks not centered on the center bolt of the spring will easily cause dog walking.
Start with a good slow walk around of the truck, make sure it's sitting on a flat surface with the wheels straight.
Check the steering wheel to see if it's off center, look at all the tires (I assume they are all the same size) and see if they have the same clearance from side to side, look at the bumper to front valance panel, is it evenly spaced or is the bumper closer on one side that the other? Check the back bumper from side to side, Also on PU trucks look at the distance between cab and bed, it should be even and straight across. If any of those are obviously different then there's a good chance you do have dog walking and that will effect handling, fuel economy and tire life and that's not even mentioning the safety factor of bump steer! Good luck and let us know.

 

[Barrman]

I forgot to address the dog walking. How do you know? If someone told you they saw it doing that. Have that same person get behind the other side of the vehicle and watch how it “dog walks” that way too. The rear axle is not as wide as the front. It will always look like it is going sideways by looking at the tires from behind.

The different axle width is why as soon as anything is behind the drivers shoulder, you can turn all you want and never hit it in a M1009.

 

[nyoffroad]

I forgot to address the dog walking. How do you know? If someone told you they saw it doing that. Have that same person get behind the other side of the vehicle and watch how it “dog walks” that way too. The rear axle is not as wide as the front. It will always look like it is going sideways by looking at the tires from behind.

The different axle width is why as soon as anything is behind the drivers shoulder, you can turn all you want and never hit it in a M1009.

I forgot about how that looks to someone that didn't know about it. Being an old auto body frame guy, when someone tells me it dogwalks I figure they more than likely knew it was.

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

Maybe just a seeger-type snap ring ??

View attachment 921818

It looks like there is a cutout for a snap ring. I think that's the issue. I can't get to that point. Will explain in next post.

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

So, I'm stuck. I was going to push out the bearing, but my tool can't get around the steering arm. So I started removing that and I'm ashamed to say I've spent hours trying to get it off. I found out about the cone washer issue, and I was able to knock one out with a punch. The others I attacked with a air hammer to the point of messing them up. Also pounded the heck out of the arm with a 4 lb. hammer. I have an oxy torch but it's a pain to set up and I'll likely destroy the arm anyway. Would a stud puller possibly work? Any ideas?

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

I forgot to address the dog walking. How do you know? If someone told you they saw it doing that. Have that same person get behind the other side of the vehicle and watch how it “dog walks” that way too. The rear axle is not as wide as the front. It will always look like it is going sideways by looking at the tires from behind.

The different axle width is why as soon as anything is behind the drivers shoulder, you can turn all you want and never hit it in a M1009.

People behind me have seen it, but I can feel it driving. It comes and then goes away, usually after a turn in the opposite direction. Going around corners usually triggers it.

There is a 1.5" lift but no blocks. I found that the nuts were not torqued to spec by the shop that did the work. I did that after measuring the distance between tires on both sides.

 

[Barrman]

The conical washers on the steering arm are a pain. Holding a ball peen hammer right at a washer and then using the biggest hammer you have to hit the other hammer sometimes works. So does hitting the stud itself (after you put the nut back on to not mushroom or peen the stud of course.)

The M715 has those stupid things on the axle flange at both rear corners. Very frustrating. An air hammer with a flat bit also works.

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

The conical washers on the steering arm are a pain. Holding a ball peen hammer right at a washer and then using the biggest hammer you have to hit the other hammer sometimes works. So does hitting the stud itself (after you put the nut back on to not mushroom or peen the stud of course.)

The M715 has those stupid things on the axle flange at both rear corners. Very frustrating. An air hammer with a flat bit also works.

I have already knackered two studs and I'm going to replace them all. Just trying to get the parts apart at this point and clean up the scuffs with a die grinder. At this point I'm assuming the torch will be involved.

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

I'm tired of playing around with this. I just put the nuts back on the studs and sanded both down with a dremel. I'm planning to weld the nuts to the studs with a flux core rod. I figure this will put a ton of heat into the cone washer and hopefully give me a method to back everything off with a socket and breaker bar. If this is a bad plan, please speak up. Thanks everyone!

 

[gringeltaube]

To dislodge the cone inserts you need to hit the arm on both sides - not the top side of the arm, not the cones, not the studs!
Try that before anything else!

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

Victory! Back to the ball joint now.

 

[nyoffroad]

People behind me have seen it, but I can feel it driving. It comes and then goes away, usually after a turn in the opposite direction. Going around corners usually triggers it.

There is a 1.5" lift but no blocks. I found that the nuts were not torqued to spec by the shop that did the work. I did that after measuring the distance between tires on both sides.

To me that sounds like play in the steering , not the suspension (ball joints). Not saying you are wasting your time, just make sure to check drag link,tie rods, idler arm and gear box. True dog walking is caused by something bent or out of place or out of spec and will not come and go!

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

To me that sounds like play in the steering , not the suspension (ball joints). Not saying you are wasting your time, just make sure to check drag link,tie rods, idler arm and gear box. True dog walking is caused by something bent or out of place or out of spec and will not come and go!

I hear ya. I'm going to try to dial in the steering box after I get this back together. I figured replacing everything up front was worth the effort since this is a 40 year old truck I intend on keeping forever. I have heard pops and things steering it at a stop, so I suspect the u-joints are shot at a minimum. So far, having done one side, the ball joints are not loose, but they aren't easy to move either. I've seen torn boots and the seal at the knuckle on the driver's side was completely destroyed.

 

[Barrman]

Do the axle shaft u-joints while you have it apart. They get stiff and can cause hard steering effort among other things.

 

[nyoffroad]

I hear ya. I'm going to try to dial in the steering box after I get this back together. I figured replacing everything up front was worth the effort since this is a 40 year old truck I intend on keeping forever. I have heard pops and things steering it at a stop, so I suspect the u-joints are shot at a minimum. So far, having done one side, the ball joints are not loose, but they aren't easy to move either. I've seen torn boots and the seal at the knuckle on the driver's side was completely destroyed.

Back in the day, when the kids were little, and I was perpetually broke I would have to only do the bare minimum on my truck, it's SOOO much nicer (but more work upfront) to just get it all done and not have to worry about it for years to come!

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

Late update on this. I finally just pushed that upper balljoint out. It indeed had a cut on the bottom for a C-clip. Must have been some oddball part. The shaft for the joint looks just fine though. I'm going to pressure wash everything now and then change out the u-joint then reassemble the driver's side. Other side should go much more quickly now that I know what I'm doing (maybe.)

Also, thank you God for Kroil!

 

[HelluvaEngineer]

Do the axle shaft u-joints while you have it apart. They get stiff and can cause hard steering effort among other things.

Was attempting to do this and I just noticed that the u-joints don't have the 3/4 moon clips that everyone online says they should have. Does that mean I have the godawful plastic ones that you have to melt out? Any tips on doing that? I've never dealt with them before.