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COOL! I found a really goood mix for WVO fuel

gringeltaube

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...me too!
So I mixed my SVO (salad oil) with regular unleaded gasoline (RUG) to see what happens with the flow viscosity at room temperature, and if there was any advantage compared to paint thinner: SAME RESULT, minimum effect if adding only 3%! It went down from 19" to 17" at 6% and 15" with 10% gasoline!
Now I'm very curious to know what magical solvent they are using!!! :?: :?: :?:

Gerhard
 

DrFoster

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I'm thinking that our mix with the spirits increased the ability of the oil to burn. I'm not sure. I'm a people doctor, not a chemical engineer. I've been accused of being the turbo doctor too. That's about it.

Look, it works. I promise you that. It meets our needs, and if I knew this was going to turn into some sort of scientific debate, I'd rather have kept it to myself.

I'm a bit fluent in hydrodynamics and aerodynamics, as well as basic physics. Now let me respond to some of the "scientific" tests:

This viscosity/flow distance over time thing is totally insane to think that is a way to measure something relevant to this study. Forgive me if I come off rude, but I totally don't understand it, you, or why you posted. Are you supposed to tell me that the surface friction after coating whatever it is you’re flowing through changes after use? Of course it does. That dispels your claims right there.

If you took three funnels with filters, added 90wt to the first, let it run, then added 5 wt and timed the flow, you'd have factor A.
Factor B is 5wt on its own.
Factor C would be 5 wt then 90 wt.

These viscosity changes would mix and create laminar flow changes because of the surface friction increase or decrease. Not a very good study. Could you just use a new filter each time, "sure" but why??

How about viscosity changes with temperature? Let me give you a little lesson.

This mixture gets pumped into the fuel system at a slightly lower temperature than 100 degrees. Without going into the divisible 3 power rule with a combustion engine too far, one third of that energy created (power) is lost into heat - which is absorbed into the cooling system, oil, and metal surfaces. This is also called heat soak. Heat soak creeps into the fuel system and other bits, heating the oil until the point where it exceeds 179.924 degrees F and becomes combustible. Albeit a round about way, this is how it works. With that said, I'm estimating that adding a small percentage of highly combustible fluid lowers the point of ignition. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH YOU AND YOUR STOPWATCH. Ok, hope we got that clear. Viscosity DOES NOT equal flammability. Look at napalm. It's flaming jello. When the heat soak is not present in the engine, it will jsut flow a little slower. It still ignites because of the compression of the cylinder and the injection of the oil into the cylinder at the top of the compression stroke where it is extremely hot anyhow.

Why in the heck add gas to this mixture? The whole idea in our "rules" was to stay away from petro-chemicals all together with the exception for non-vehicular chemicals, which do not see a ton of increase or impact on the motoring industry in general.

I never said a high flow pump with a GP heater will not be needed for you guys in the winter time if you wanted to use my mix.

I'll get back to anyone else's comments in a bit; I've got other things to attend to. Hell, I might as well delete this thread.

There are three points to Science, and in my job, I need to subscribe to all three: Scientific fact, Religion (to explain what science does not), and Black Magic (to explain the still questionable). To me, this mix is a bit of the black magic. It works. It is that simple. Go try it yourself.
 

area52

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From my readings over on the other forum, the reason viscosity was such a big deal was due to the fact that the injection pumps cant handle something with a low viscosity( thick fluid). Not sure about the IP on a multifuel.

No need to get upset about this, just wanted to get a little more info as this subject really interests me.
 

ken

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I wouldn't worry too much about thick fliuds in a multifuel. I run a lot or used motor oil in mine. The only problem has been reduced life of the fuel filters. Now i may be fouling my injectors and turbine blades but i haven't noticed any problems yet. I read in a manual that it could handle 71% crude from the ground. I'm thinking of trying WVO with out heating it. It's got to be thinner that the slurry i'm using now.
Dock, I too didn't mean to offend. I was just trying to learn from your experence with this.
 

wallew

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Doc's just passionate about his wheels, that's all. I know him. He doesn't get upset.

Well, not at OTHER PEOPLE. Maybe with himself every once and a while, but that's another can of worms. WE ALL DO THAT.

Hey Doc, have you tried acetone yet? I've been using it for more than a year now. I even use it in my deuce. Seems to help milage. Not much, but hey, 10% IS better than normal. Four ounces per ten gallons of fuel. Less smoke out of the diesel and much better running in my gas engine.

Something about 'breaking surface tension' like you were talking about, allowing fuel to combust mo betta??

http://pesn.com/2005/03/17/6900069_Acetone/

Here is an explanation of ACETONE -

A colorless, volatile liquid with a sweet odor. It is considered the least toxic solvent in industry. It can occur naturally. It is used in the production of lubricating oils, chloroform, pharmaceuticals, pesticides, paints, varnishes and lacquers. If present in water, it is more likely to volatilize or biodegrade before bioaccumulating or adsorbing to sediments. Acetone will also readily volatilize and biodegrade in soil. It is also a common laboratory contaminant, so its presence in a sample does not always indicate its presence in the environment. Synonyms - Dimethylketone and 2-propanone.
 

DrFoster

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Interesting.(EDIT - Since it's a solvent) I'm a bit worried about breaking down the lubricating properties of the fuel with that. I wonder if anyone has tried it in fuel oil? I do know that there is a little bit of an oily property that needs to remain to help out the injectors, pump, and the likes.

We pump crude from our ranch in wyoming. I'm wondering if push came to shove, we could siphon off a few thousand gallons into a tanker trailer (Since I've got my CDL A with hazmat, tankers, triples, airbrakes, ect..) We could park it out there at the house we're building and then have a bit of our own reserve?

Honestly, They'd never know. I could pump the tanks dry, and they would likely just leave them running like when they had someone shoot a hole in one out there and it leaked all over. Talk about a clean up, they dug as far down as they did across... Another story for another thread someday.
 

wallew

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Doc,
I took a gasket rebuild set for a holley carb I had laying around. I put in ONE OUNCE of acetone and seven ounces of unleaded. Granted that WAY MORE acetone that the mix calls for.

I miked the rubber gaskets before they went in. Every day I turned over the sealed glass jar and always shook it a little.

Two weeks later, when I pulled the rubber gaskets out and remiked them, they were the exact same size. No shrinkage, no warping, no 'slimy' feel.

My dad has also be using the acetone for about a year. He ONLY gets about 22 mpg around town, but on his round trip from Texas to Denver and back got an AVERAGE of 28.7 mpg in his 2002 Cadillac.

Now, about your place in Wyoming. I was thinking making it a storage place for 55 gallon drums of bio diesel that we process here. Form up a convoy every once and a while and load up the drums and haul them to Wyoming. Do you have some sort of covered storage? Or could we build something without being too conspicuous?

Randy has a place down near Canyon City and I always felt that would ALSO be a place as a fuel depot. Just my thoughts.

My four XDY1's have come in. The two XDY2's are going to take about a week through their national account. Hey, I'm ALMOST there with wheels and tires.
 

DrFoster

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Yes I did, I guess you didn't get my pm... Anyhow, thanks so much!

( I think the site was having problems around the time I sent it....)

Hope you're not too upset about it. What in particular?

I've already asked if Mag can delete my post anyhow...
 

wallew

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Bjorn,
While I understand some may read what Doc posted and take offense, if you know him, you KNOW that he's not trying to ding anyone. He just disagrees.

PASSIONATELY for sure, but still just a disagreement. Perhaps he comes off a bit short. But hey, if you'd been and done what he's been and done, you probably wouldn't spend a lot of time on hand holding.

We've all been there. Few of us have been where Doc has been.

Besides, you either take someone for the way they are or you don't. I always have. Sometimes it costs me. Most times it does not. I take everyone at face value until given a reason not to.

jim
 

gringeltaube

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It sure would upset me if someone would go and delete such an interesting thread like this just because he disagrees with what others post trying to contribute…

I believe that everyone in this very best forum would prefer to burn an alternative environment friendly and renewable fuel in his engine, specially if it’s easy to prepare, cheaper than diesel and no need for a complicated two tank operation.

Back to how this thread started: ”4% Naphta (whatever it is) added to WVO, thinned it right out, no heating at all to run great…, good start after a cold night!” Certainly that would be the perfect fuel we all are looking for, very cool! But first we need to be sure that we are not possibly ruining our engines or risking to burst the rotary IP head which is not designed to start/run on thick, cold WVO/SVO, not to speak of gel/wax building during a cold night! (Bjorn’s simple test in the freezer). That’s why I still want to learn more about what that solvent really is, what it does, make my own mixtures, cool it, heat it, test it, burn it in my engine (under my own risk) and eventually report the results regarding cold start and power characteristics. Somewhere they were mentioning paint thinner, others RUG, so I just made some mixtures and viscosity tests, very simple. Sorry DrFoster, it never was my intention to turn this into a scientific debate (there isn’t much science in all this!) and I would never pretend to measure ignition point or flammability of a fuel mixture with a …stopwatch!! (thanks for the lesson, anyways) May I ask a few more questions about your mixture, just for reference, please: Did you put it in the refrigerator for at least 8 hours at 32F? Did it stay clear, did it get cloudy or even solid?
OK, if nobody is upset, let’s look forward and hopefully find out what NAPHTA is and start mixing! I'm very curious!!

Gerhard
 

wallew

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Gerhard,
Do you have a Zippo lighter? Do you ever put lighter fluid in it?

That's what Naptha is. Lighter fluid. Although I TOO am by no means a chemical engineer, nor do I play one on TV. So the stuff you put in your Zippo could have all sorts of additives.

I can buy Naptha at my local hardware store. Five, six bucks a gallon.

I personally want to try Acetone, as I've been mixing that with both gasoline AND diesel. Seems to have a little more pep and I get about 10% better mileage. But that's in my Suburban which uses gas.

I can ALSO buy Acetone at my local hardware for the same five to six bucks a gallon.

Hope this helps.

jim
 

DrFoster

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Not if you buy it from a wholesaler for $1.00-$1.85 per gal. All you'd need is a hazmat endorsement on your cdl and you're cool to transport it. (I've got mine, so we're set for over here)
 

rizzo

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Doc, after your initial expiriment have you tried any more? is the car still running on what you put in it? Have you tried it in anything else?
 

devilman96

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Filtering

For filtering WVO at home with out a piping nightmare around your garage do the following...

A Diaphragm Pump is thw way to go... they are not fast movers but will suck heavy fluids and solvents without dammage... You can buy these cheaply from Northern Tool in ether 12V or air powered (faster) the price pends how fast you want to transfer fluids but 3 or so GPM is reasonable but will be much slower with oil so dont expect to be the newest Shell station in the area...

Use a Hydraulic filter set up for the first filter pass Napa base number 4759 with filter number 1758 (25 micron) I would suggest blocking off the bypass for obvious reasons... Then use the same base number with a 1746 filter (5 micron) and then a 3489 fuel filter / separator with 4309 mounting base (a optional step)... All of these are LARGE but affordable filters when you are talking about free fuel and can be ganged up together with simple pipe fittings which will allow pumping from your "pick up" tank to a storage tank or directly to your fuel tank... Its not the fastest set up in the world but it is hands free, clean, neat and simple...

The easiest and cheapest tubing is the water tubing used for hooking up your fridge's ice maker... It holds up to oil well and lets you see whats moving (or not) in the lines...

Watching all of this work is like watching PAINT DRY... Hook up a float switch to your clean storage drum and the system will shut off automaticly when full.

Allow the picked up MVO to settle for 24 to 48 hours before pumping and don't pump off of the bottom, leave a few inches of space for the large chunks!!

Lastly... Used ATF works well too...
 
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