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Correct DUKW Oil Pressure?

renovate7

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Got the DUKW engine compartment all back together and fired it up. Starts cold or hot quickly, scary good...I noticed my oil pressure at idle with engine hot is only 20-25psi. Seemed a bit low. When I look in the manual it says a new engine should only have 5 psi at hot idle and a worn engine should just move the needle off the peg, wow! Is this correct? I remember the Waukasau engines we used in forklifts only had 8 psi at idle. Did older engines run much lower pressures?..Picture is before radiator went back in.DSCN0457.jpgDSCN0449.jpgDSCN0448.jpgDSCN0445.jpg
 

clinto

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1. I would have no problem with 20 psi @ idle hot. Did older stuff run lower pressures at hot idle? Not sure, although I've had plenty of stuff that ran forever with low pressure. As long as you have enough pressure to create the hydrodynamic wedge that "floats" the crank in the bearings, then you're good. The commonly accepted barrier for that is 1psi for every 100 rpm's. So you're well within that range.

2. I am so envious my head just exploded. Man that hull looks good.
 

steelypip

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When I look in the manual it says a new engine should only have 5 psi at hot idle and a worn engine should just move the needle off the peg, wow! Is this correct? I remember the Waukasau engines we used in forklifts only had 8 psi at idle. Did older engines run much lower pressures?
First, you have yet another guy jonesing for that DUKW. Beautiful.

Second, yes. Oil and plain bearings have always gone together, but pressure lubrication is really a pretty recent addition to mechanism. Pretty much no steam engines used it (later ones used elaborate drip lubricator systems, but no pressure AFAIK). Because early IC engines were basically steam engines without the water, the same technology carried over. Plain old hydrodynamic wedge lubrication was the order of the day, and splash lubrication of con rods appeared the instant that crank cases were enclosed. Mains generally had pumped or gravity-fed lubrication, but manufacturers resisted drilling holes in crankshafts for a very long time. I think the last Chevy/GMC engine design with splash lube rod bearings wasn't retired until some time in the late 1950s.

Early pumped lubrication systems weren't pressurized at all - the pump lifted oil out of the sump to some reservoir from which gravity fed oil to the bearings. Some time along the way people figured out that they could have smaller bearings (and thus a smaller engine of the same power) if they fed pressurized oil to the bearings, but this was 'exotic high tech' for several decades, and particularly truck and utility engines had just enough oil pressure to force oil through a filter for a long time indeed.

By the 1960s the design standard was 10 PSI oil pressure per 1000 RPM crank speed. Truck and utility engines might still max out at 20-30 PSI and have less than 5 PSI at idle on a hot, worn engine and be just fine. Only small-displacement high-RPM engines had much different lubrication systems until about the 1980s.
 

renovate7

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Thank you, that explains a lot. The Waukasau engines Clark used in their forklifts were a 50's design. They ran about 8 psi at idle. At one point Clark, in their infinate wisdom, decided to use an oil pressure gauge that went from 0-60 psi instead of 0-30. Probably got a deal on them and saved a few pennies. All of a sudden we're getting warranty calls that customers lifts had no oil pressure! 8 psi on a 0-60 gauge doesn't move the needle very much...I know the oil filter on this DUKW engine does very little, there is only a 1/8" line to it and an even smaller hole in the center pipe to let the oil out. I've been told the jeep guys blocked off the oil filter for a while but this caused more problems than it was worth. I guess we have a pump (it to the top) and dump oil system.
 

steelypip

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Don't be knocking the oil filter. They come in two kinds: full-flow (what you're used to) and bypass (probably what the DUKW has). Full-flow oil filters had a lot of advertising hype behind them when they became common on engines in the 1950s. The oil path in a full-flow system is pump -> pressure relief valve -> filter -> bearings. It requires some fairly clever engineering in the filter area to allow for a plugged filter or a cold engine with thick oil (high pressure differential across the filter media). A full-flow filter does get all the oil every time it goes through the engine, but it ceases being a filter at all when the bypass valve inside the filter opens, as when the engine is cold.

The bypass filter doesn't flow nearly as much volume of oil, but often (particularly in the early days of full-flow filtration) filters smaller particles with a higher exclusion rate. It usually just bleeds some amount of oil out of the main bearing gallery through an orifice into the filter, but I have seen more elaborate arrangements that dumped the output of the pressure relief valve through the filter as well (with a second relief valve in the filter feed line in case the filter plugged up).

As long as the air filter is good (WWII-era equipment generally had oil bath filters, which work better than almost anything else), the instantaneous dirt loading of the oil system is low, and a bypass filter might actually maintain a lower particulate level in the oil than a contemporary full-flow filter would. The one downside is that there is oil (and oil pressure) bled off of the bearing supply gallery that could be lubricating and cooling the bearings. Providing the pump is adequately sized, this is not an issue.

Both systems are still in use today - look up bypass filters (and the Dieselcraft centrifugal filter) for heavy trucks and construction equipment.
 

JasonS

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Don't be knocking the oil filter. They come in two kinds: full-flow (what you're used to) and bypass (probably what the DUKW has). Full-flow oil filters had a lot of advertising hype behind them when they became common on engines in the 1950s. .
If you read the SAE papers in the 50s, the improvement in engine life due to full flow filtering was phenomenal: 50% crankshaft, 66% wrist pin, 19% cylinder wall, and 52% ring wear. I'd have hyped this in advertising, too.
 

steelypip

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If you read the SAE papers in the 50s, the improvement in engine life due to full flow filtering was phenomenal: 50% crankshaft, 66% wrist pin, 19% cylinder wall, and 52% ring wear. I'd have hyped this in advertising, too.
I don't disagree, but did they compare against a bypass filter with a known rate of flow bypass, and was it apples:apples with respect to rate of flow to gallery, system main gallery pressure, and other variables? I have a feeling (backed by some personal experience) that the oil pumps of the era were pretty weak performers and that getting all the oil flowing reliably to the main galleries through some kind of filter was a bigger deal than full flow vs bypass filtration alone.

The 1950s was a period of great change in American automotive engineering. There were a lot of changes made other than the adoption of full flow oil filters that should have affected engine wear and lifespan.
 

JasonS

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I don't disagree, but did they compare against a bypass filter with a known rate of flow bypass, and was it apples:apples with respect to rate of flow to gallery, system main gallery pressure, and other variables? I have a feeling (backed by some personal experience) that the oil pumps of the era were pretty weak performers and that getting all the oil flowing reliably to the main galleries through some kind of filter was a bigger deal than full flow vs bypass filtration alone.

The 1950s was a period of great change in American automotive engineering. There were a lot of changes made other than the adoption of full flow oil filters that should have affected engine wear and lifespan.
The numbers I quoted were "as compared to the usual by-pass type filter." It was and is common to modify the GMC engines for full flow oil filters. I modded several Reo engines to full flow using spin on filters. It is simply choosing the appropriate filter to match the flow.

An ex gm powertrain engineer told me that there are three reasons why the chevy and gmc inlines have short lifespans: poor air filtration (oil wetted air filters), bypass filters which don't keep engine damaging particles out of bearings, and cast iron rings (i have one paper from 1950 which says that chrome plated top rings reduce bore wear by 75%). It was his opinion that fixing these three shortcomings would result in 100k + mile lifespans.
 

steelypip

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An ex gm powertrain engineer told me that there are three reasons why the chevy and gmc inlines have short lifespans: poor air filtration (oil wetted air filters), bypass filters which don't keep engine damaging particles out of bearings, and cast iron rings (i have one paper from 1950 which says that chrome plated top rings reduce bore wear by 75%). It was his opinion that fixing these three shortcomings would result in 100k + mile lifespans.
This adds some information I didn't have that explains the desirability of full-flow filtration on these engines. Basically, the air filters were untrustworthy and there was a lot of bore and ring material shedding into the oil. I read long ago that a significant amount of wear in most engines is attributable to abrasive particles in the intake air which then get on cylinder walls and into the oil. That's why used oil analysis reports silicon as well as common wear metals. If you know you have a problem with crud getting into the engine, then you have to do something about getting it out. Hence a full-flow filter. I had (mistakenly) assumed that air filtration was better than it was.

What had me confused was a) the short oil change intervals in those days and b) the large clearances, low pressures, and light bearing loadings didn't really suggest that the oil would have an especially high flow rate or be especially dirty. If we include bad air filtration and resultant chunks of abrasive material circulating in the oil then it's pretty easy to see why a full-flow filter is desirable.
 

retired wrench

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You would be surprised at the comtaminates in fuel. I had a container of laquer thinner that I dipped carbs in after comming out of the cleaner. Once in a while a screw or other small part would fall in it. When using a magnet to fish them out it would look like it had grown hair from the metal particles.
 
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