CVR(T) FV103 Spartan VS. Hotchkiss 22-2 Schützenpanzer help

[teletech]

So, trying to decide on my first tracked vehicle and thought I'd throw it out to the community for input...
I went to the Littlefield auction and while I was too slow to move money and throw caution to the wind I did get a chance to sit in some nice armor and get the itch. I came away thinking the British units but really liked that little French job, it was just much too expensive for me.
The CVR(T): has excellent speed and maneuverability, a ready source of spare parts, all the manuals are in English. The armor is aluminum. The transmissions are problematic, the Jag motor is, well a Jag motor and track, while available is expensive to ship and has pretty short life. Also, if you are really lucky (or have deep pockets) you can find it with an common cummins diesel.
The 22-2: Is rarer, tends to sell for more money, has much better visibility for the driver. Seems to have better interior space and while the track seems scarce has big easily replaceable track pads! Finding other parts is bound to be hard.
The armor is steel and seems to have better protection(?) It's also pretty slow and heavy.
Plus there is the problem of the jokes about the French and tanks which is a bigger issue than I would have thought, especially when I tell people it's really slow going in reverse.
If the French apc is a little more money.
I suppose I should mention also those Schutzenpanzer Sauer SPzA1 I see, lovely and cheap but the width makes for challenging shipping and I'm worried about on-road and on-trail suitablity. Any reason I should revisit the opinion?

Fuel consumption figures are hard to come by, the FV103 seems to be about 4.5-6MPG with the gas motor but no clue on the other.
In the real world, is the speed important, which armor is actually better? Al picks up dings and can burn but the steel could spall any ideas of real-world protection against threats like .223, 30-06ap, .50AP, etc?
Any input from the community, anybody have the SpZ and how do you like it?
Resale value? I have to keep the wife happy, amazingly she is being a good sport about the whole thing, must be a keeper.

thanks in advance for your input.
P_

 

[B3.3T]

If you are really wanting to run it, don't ever buy anything you can't get parts. You will not get parts for the Hotchkiss. If milage is a concern, don't buy armor. Short of a full MBT, nothing will stop a .50. Don't buy over width unless buying a MBT. It will be a constant restraint. Properly operated and serviced, the gearbox on CVRTs are fine. I've owned 12. The Jag can be swapped as needed with a good US straight six such as a Ford 300. Great engine, cheap, better torque. Diesel swap requires gearbox swap and a ton more money. As for aluminum vs steel, Bradley's and M-113 are aluminum, Strikers and LAVs are steel. Both are effective and have their place. If you are hit by something heavy/hot enough to burn it, you are screwed either way. Bottom line: you want a collector vehicle or one to use? If to use, gotta have parts.

 

[teletech]

Thanks for the feedback.
Found a couple parts vehicles for the French (as opposed to many dozen for the British but still) and happy to do a re-power in the larger engine bay of the French so not as dire as all that but point well taken. Good tip on the Ford motor, nice to have an option.
I know it's going to be expensive but a scorp vs a M75 is a big jump from $2-4/mile to more like $6-9/mile I think so it's a factor. Not so worried now but with an oil shortage or some emergency it's good to think about fuel use as part of TCO.
According to the specs in Jane's, the front of either one will stop .50 and more but I'd love to know how they performed in practice, was this just a theory? The Brits certainly used theirs and I did hear the driver was at-risk but I'm not sure the French ever saw combat (insert obligatory joke here).
Not "need a permit" overwidth, just won't fit into a container or my shop overwidth, 8'6" vs 7'1".
Gearboxes for diesel are going to be common as the next gen are phased out, the shielder et.al. family use a T15E.
I agree about the armor burning but what about concentrated LMG fire or just plain old bumps and scrapes in service?
Thanks for the reminder about parts, I collect obsolete minicomputers (more heavy things but in chunks of under 1000lbs) and the frustration of trying to find that one elusive cable is tiresome. I'm going to assume I need to budget at least $10k in spares ASAP after purchase of a vehicle, focusing on running-gear (track and road wheels, etc. and control parts.

 

[teletech]

Thanks for the feedback.
Found a couple parts vehicles for the French (as opposed to many dozen for the British but still) and happy to do a re-power in the larger engine bay of the French so not as dire as all that but point well taken. Good tip on the Ford motor, nice to have an option.
I know it's going to be expensive but a scorp vs a M75 is a big jump from $2-4/mile to more like $6-9/mile I think so it's a factor. Not so worried now but with an oil shortage or some emergency it's good to think about fuel use as part of TCO.
According to the specs in Jane's, the front of either one will stop .50 and more but I'd love to know how they performed in practice, was this just a theory? The Brits certainly used theirs and I did hear the driver was at-risk but I'm not sure the French ever saw combat (insert obligatory joke here).
Not "need a permit" overwidth, just won't fit into a container or my shop overwidth, 8'6" vs 7'1".
Gearboxes for diesel are going to be common as the next gen are phased out, the shielder et.al. family use a T15E.
I agree about the armor burning but what about concentrated LMG fire or just plain old bumps and scrapes in service?
Thanks for the reminder about parts, I collect obsolete minicomputers (more heavy things but in chunks of under 1000lbs) and the frustration of trying to find that one elusive cable is tiresome. I'm going to assume I need to budget at least $10k in spares ASAP after purchase of a vehicle, focusing on running-gear (track and road wheels, etc. and control parts.

 

[Jeepsinker]

Buy something you will be able to get parts for 20 years down the road ( think small parts too, not just track and road wheels).
Edit: Fwiw, I've never seen any piece of French machinery that was engineered well and LASTED.

 

[L1A1]

There have been several Hotchkiss APCs up for sale lately with one of the sellers advertizing that he has spare parts as well. They were used a good bit by the W.Germans in the 1950s(?) and 60s. Not sure if they ever saw combat with anyone's Military. They are a neat machine & (kind of) grow on you.

The British FV101 Has been in service with the British (& others) for a long time. It's seen combat all over the world. There certainly seems to be more of them around as whole or parts vehicles then the Hotchkiss. There are a couple of members on here who own them and they seem to be happy with their purchase. There is a guy here in the 'States that imports parts for them & that's a plus.

Have you thought about something wheeled like a BRDM?

Matt

 

[quickfarms]

Transport width is a much bigger concern than fuel milage.

If you are worried about fuel milage, you are in the wrong hobby.

If you are concerned about parts buy a couple of parts vehicles and keep them inside.

Keep at least one set of filters, belts and hoses on hand if you can not cross reference them to common readily available parts.

 

[B3.3T]

Neither are tanks, they are APCs, so the concept of frontal armor vs. the rest of the vehicle is totally moot. The threat to an APC is from all sides and top. Forget about stopping a .50, especially modern AP. Regarding a Hotchkiss, keep in mind any armor you get directly from a German collector will have been demilled. The Germans require the armor in front and sides wherever anyone sits, must be removed.

 

[L1A1]

From what I've gathered by the OP's original post, he may want to look at some sort of "hardened" suburban for his needs. Anything Military/ tacti-cool will attract the eye & unwanted attention of both the public & nare-do-wells alike.


Matt

 

[Madmedic]

Ditto to what L1A1 Said.

There was a used car dealer in Arizona, on the web selling an Up-Armored Chevy, (Suburban, Tahoe, I forget) which appears to have been a DEA or Customs seized Vehicle, not too long ago.

But for anyone thinking that an APC, wheeled or tracked is something for a Zombie Apocalypse type vehicle, they need to remember, that there are plenty of other people out there with .50 Cal Rifles of various types. And plenty of Mil Surplus APTI. As he mentioned LMG, which could fall into the smaller calibers of discussion, even these can possibly penetrate, or much more likely cause spalling. Spalling is not just flaking of armor, but also refers to the dislodgement of nuts, bolts, or any other loose metal inside the armored vehicle.

The best line to consider in this converation, is the Discussion Between General Bradley and General Patton, in the movie, when they were discussing the armor protection or lack there of, with the half tracks, after the battle of Kasserine Pass.

 

[L1A1]

We also need to remember that this is an MV site & not weapons or BOVs/zombie uprisings etc site. Plenty of good places on the net to go for that. The Mods will dump this thread in a heart beat if it strays to far away from MVs as the subject....

Now for some "MV" content. If I were looking at a tracked vehicle and it would be as a fun toy/investment, I'd look real hard at the FV101s for the already stated (above) reasons. I really do like the look of the Hotchkiss & Sauer APCs. I'd consider one of those as well but remember, I'm not taking the thing into combat & it's not a "department vehicle" so if it breaks and has to sit for a spell while I source the replacement parts for it, that's Ok.

Another thing to consider here where ordering spares are concerned, Thanks to treatys such as ITAR, Countries like the UK now require that you (the purchaser) possess an export license for anything Military related.

Matt

 

[teletech]

The Hotchkiss is located in CZ so not demilled but a good reminder about such things. The CVR(T) is (according to Jane's) rated for 14.5mm on the front and I gather the CVR(T) up-armor for the fv103 is good for .50 on the sides, while I think I read the Hotchkiss supposedly will take 20mm on the front. I was just wondering about the history of these and how they performed in the real world, 14.5mm has a lot more energy than .50 BMG and of course the Al isn't inclined to spall.
I just thought a discussion about the merits of armor or weapons systems on two similar vehicles would have been interesting and as valid as speed, power, etc. Certainly any number of folks here discuss vehicles that are rated for weights without the license class for using it. As for tacti-cool bobbing a duce to use a grocery getter is likely as provocative as my tooling around a few fire roads well away from public view, can't a guy just want a cool toy to play with?
h
The scorpion family have been a real "best seller" and parts should be around but because they are so small the seem to command a premium price, the SAURER 4K 4FA and CVRT Stormer that are around for sale are hugely tempting if you don't need something quite so small but some of the roads I'd like to roam are pretty narrow. with those you could buy an entire spare vehicle for what a fv101 is going for.

 

[L1A1]

The Hotchkiss is located in CZ so not demilled but a good reminder about such things. The CVR(T) is (according to Jane's) rated for 14.5mm on the front and I gather the CVR(T) up-armor for the fv103 is good for .50 on the sides, while I think I read the Hotchkiss supposedly will take 20mm on the front. I was just wondering about the history of these and how they performed in the real world, 14.5mm has a lot more energy than .50 BMG and of course the Al isn't inclined to spall. Supposedly, my Ferret is rated against .50 across the frontal arc but I still wouldn't want to find out.
I just thought a discussion about the merits of armor or weapons systems on two similar vehicles would have been interesting and as valid as speed, power, etc. & it is. This site is kind of odd when it comes to those subjects (ask me how I know). Certainly any number of folks here discuss vehicles that are rated for weights without the license class for using it. Not the same as the above, though. As for tacti-cool bobbing a duce to use a grocery getter is likely as provocative as my tooling around a few fire roads well away from public view, can't a guy just want a cool toy to play with? Never cared for bobbers, personally. Your OP gives the reader the impresssion that you are looking for some sort of BOV not a trail toy. Most guys looking for a week-end off roading toy usually don't care about balistic protection-begs the question "Where are you off roading??!!"

The Small tracked vehicles you mentioned are very cool indeed. Check with your local laws regarding driving such things on fire roads. The national forest only allows stuff that can be driven on regular roads onto their fire roads (that's from a FS employee).
h
The scorpion family have been a real "best seller" and parts should be around but because they are so small the seem to command a premium price, the SAURER 4K 4FA and CVRT Stormer that are around for sale are hugely tempting if you don't need something quite so small but some of the roads I'd like to roam are pretty narrow. with those you could buy an entire spare vehicle for what a fv101 is going for.

I've always liked the APCs myself because you can carry a few more friends plus spares/tools as needed. A "gun tank" is very cool but (maybe) not so versatile? Remember the big boom stick in the turret is usually (but not always) demilled. Also take into account (don't know what your experience is) that tracked stuff requires deeper pockets to run/ transpo & maintain over conventional wheeled stuff. Whith that being said, the Stormer might be your best bet for fun in the sun. Which ever way you go, good luck & remember to post pics!
Regards,
Matt

 

[teletech]

The Jag can be swapped as needed with a good US straight six such as a Ford 300. Great engine, cheap, better torque. Diesel swap requires gearbox swap and a ton more money.

So, has anybody actually done a Ford 300 swap and have tales to tell or pictures to show?

The Jag motor in my Scorpion is not rebuildable and from what I've read about them vs. the big-6 Ford I think this would be really neat to try.

Obviously the oil pan will be custom, no problem there. The Jag motor was DOHC so I doubt height is an issue. The intake would be by the driver like the Jag. My worry is the Ford motor isn't a crossflow so it puts the exhaust up against the driver's firewall as well.
I would either need to run the exhaust forward around the front of the motor or make some very odd headers.

 

[Jeepsinker]

Use a Jeep 4.0L engine and it'll put both manifolds on the opposite side, then some simple plumbing and done. The 4.0 is a great engine as well, and lots of torque, plus aftermarket support. You can go electronic with it, or old school carbureted with the 4.2L if you want.

 

[teletech]

Hmm, interesting...
Super available and lots of parts support, manifolds on the correct side.
Not remotely as indestructable as the Ford motor though.
Worth putting a tape measure on for sure!

 

[jeremymx26]

4.0 liter is as tough as the ford. No doubt about that. I've seen the engine run for hours with no oil and they generally travel well over 200,000 miles. Ford motor may go 200,000 I don't know. They usually rust away before that. Haha

I've seen a 4.6 stroker long block available from quadratec.com for more torque and HP.

But will it work?

 

[Jeepsinker]

Yes it'll work. The 4.0 is actually a better engine as far as longevity and repairability. They sound good too. Better horsepower and torque than a stock throttle body injected Chevy 350.