Deuce 4x4 with M105 reduced spring and air bag

[Jakelc15]

My helper spring is right at 2" to the pertch. The swing shackle is about 5° out from verticle. The spring pack being slightly longer than its frame mounts.

 

[tobyS]

The trunion being removed. The side plate slipped and tried to take my thumb off. Don't think I broke anything but it bled a lot. All seems okay. A deuce seems small until lifting parts. Next is plating the frame. The rear mount is partly on the new plate and partly on the old reinforcement plate. It was fitting the side plate that got out of control.

I grind to mostly bare metal and put red primer then black enamel Rustoleum. A sandblaster would be nice as this truck was used where they salt roads. I notice the worst rust starts just behind the cab, but it's cleaning up nice.

I painted the area that the plates lap with aluminum paint. I don't know if it matters... just seems like the right thing to do with some old AL paint.

 

[gimpyrobb]

The stud is my my cut off unbolt and 3/4x1.0 sleaze.

Gotta love studs and sleaze!

 

[tobyS]

Gotta love studs and sleaze!

Yep....well no.

Never-sleaze....lube of choice for the MV builder

 

[tobyS]

While I like the spring pack with 9 leafs, I'm adding 2 of them back in for 11. This makes the 105 spring less one short leaf only. I'll keep about a 15 degree back angle on the shackle to help soften the ride.

I'm wondering about putting some electrical and hose conduits into the frame while I plate it.

 

[Jakelc15]

Adding springs to soften the ride

 

[cattlerepairman]

That trunnion is solid steel, I think!

Yes, putting 2 or 3 conduits in the boxed frame sounds like a smart move to make future add-ons much easier.

 

[rustystud]

That trunnion is solid steel, I think!

Yes, putting 2 or 3 conduits in the boxed frame sounds like a smart move to make future add-ons much easier.

Yes it is ! I had my old 1954 deuce's trunnion assembly hot galvanized back in the early 90's. I was still strong then and still it was a pain to remove !

Also the conduit idea is a good one. I did that on my deuce to run the wires for my trailer towing box. I used schedule 40 electrical PVC pipe. That way it will never rust.

 

[grendel]

Glad I could help.

Why not do a full air ride?

 

[tobyS]

Glad I could help.

Why not do a full air ride?

I had the M105 springs already. For some reason they seemed too heavy when on the trailer frame but as I prepared them and had input from others, they are not as strong as I first thought. I like the idea of needing no air in bags when I don't have a payload.

My shock mount won't work...it ends up too close to the brake plate for the shock to be put on or taken off. I'll have to make a big U with a bolt/pin. Surprisingly, the shackle angle is a bigger factor for a smooth ride (from what I read) than I originally thought.

Jake, As I said, they seemed too heavy on the M105 to get a smooth ride but I could see when I had them cleaned and reassembled that removing 5 was too much...then later -3 seems too much. Research here was difficult to find a firm answer so it's a hit and miss guess, that hopefully and with your input as I reach a final design, I'm at about the right number. So to answer your comment, it's a trial and error where my first error was by taking too many out. Maybe the next person will have a clearer path.

 

[Jakelc15]

I think you've got it figured out pretty good. You have a good bit of adjustment with the air bag.

 

[Jbulach]

Hey Toby,

Just more food for thought... If ride quality is one of your main priority’s, and you don’t have your spring hangers mounted yet. Look into a set of 64” Chevy springs, maybe with a couple of your longest M105 springs under them, and or adjust the angle your adding to the frame up or down to get ride height. I think they are 2-1/2” wide and came on 1/2 to 1 ton, SRW trucks, so there should be a pretty good range of spring rates out there in junk yards. Spec them with a good 4-5” of up travel, at empty ride hight, with a leveling valve to air your bags, only when you put a load on, ought to make for a pretty cushy ride in the rear. I just don’t think your going to be able to utilize anywhere near the 7.7” of bag travel you have available with the M105 springs. I’m not sure what ID bushing are available in them thought?

Also, whats the stroke of your shocks?

 

[tobyS]

The shock mount had to be changed. Here is the revised perch.

The shock has 9" of travel. I marked it in chalk every 1 inch so I knew where it was in relation to the frame. I'm mounting it with 5" of up travel (compressed) and 4" down (extended) with no payload.

The first picture is with the plated frame. The rear frame mount is very close to the end.

 

[tobyS]

I posted on an old thread about thoughts having a powered m105 using the rear axle removed from my 4x4 M35A3.

https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?31957-power-driven-trailer

Here is the location of the rear axle driveshaft to connect to. It is offset about 5 1/2" to the right. It appears the driveshaft that was on it would work to come to a jackshaft, perhaps one with CV joints.

I could use a spline like farm machinery PTO and take it off at the truck axle when not in use. And have lockouts on the trailer with air locker on the truck rear axle. See why I named it "money pit"?

 

[tobyS]

Cleaned the additional springs and put them back into the spring pack with a lot of red grease. Now there are 11 leafs, the 3rd (small) one is removed. I had grease all over from squeeze-out but seeing the crud that was in them originally, it seemed the best thing to do.

Today I find the permanent location of the axle that is 50" from the back of the M105 bed (to center the wheel well opening) and 47" from the back of the rear frame (3" overhang). I'm not sure where, but I'll find a spot close to the cab that has (frame) holes in the same location from side to side and go from them for equal distance. I don't want it going sideways down the road.

I think I better put the weight of the frame on the springs so my angle of the shackle does not change from axle hanging to supporting the truck. I want the shackle at a final position of 10 degree to allow some additional weight, like bed and center structure.

 

[tobyS]

Well, don't go with a 3" space if you plate the side like like I did, go 2" or 5" lower than the frame but don't go 3" or 4", the attachment bolts end up too close to the flange. I went 3" and have to make the bolt reach clear through to the edge of the flange. I'll make a detail of my solution and edit this post with a picture.

Edit... I added photo of my solution for ending up in the bend for the spring mount.

 

[rustystud]

Well, don't go with a 3" space if you plate the side like like I did, go 2" or 5" lower than the frame but don't go 3" or 4", the attachment bolts end up too close to the flange. I went 3" and have to make the bolt reach clear through to the edge of the flange. I'll make a detail of my solution and edit this post with a picture.

Edit... I added photo of my solution for ending up in the bend for the spring mount.

That is a very creative solution ! Well done !

 

[tobyS]

Time to work out the drive-shaft for the truck rear axle. I measure and the length needed is around 84" (that's 7' 0") for a one piece driveshaft. An older post has a link to Spicer but I can't copy it. On page 18 there is a chart that gives the max critical length for each size shaft at the max rpm.
The deuce is 3" and the Cat can go around 2500 rpm with a 1.1 final drive. The chart says 76" is the max length. If I drop to 2000 rpm, the same shaft can be 85" long.

That seems to put me on the edge of having a one piece driveshaft versus one with a carrier bearing. I really would like to avoid the carrier bearing. That said, here is what I think will work for a carrier

I'll have to confirm but it appears I can turn the first shaft around and run the carrier bearing on the solid shaft where the splines and slip yoke are. I can make it line up with the TC output with 0 angle. I don't need the slip joint on that side of the bearing then, just the u-joint.

I think I can use the 2 driveshafts removed to make the one new one needed.

 

[rustystud]

Time to work out the drive-shaft for the truck rear axle. I measure and the length needed is around 84" (that's 7' 0") for a one piece driveshaft. An older post has a link to Spicer but I can't copy it. On page 18 there is a chart that gives the max critical length for each size shaft at the max rpm.
The deuce is 3" and the Cat can go around 2500 rpm with a 1.1 final drive. The chart says 76" is the max length. If I drop to 2000 rpm, the same shaft can be 85" long.

That seems to put me on the edge of having a one piece driveshaft versus one with a carrier bearing. I really would like to avoid the carrier bearing. That said, here is what I think will work for a carrier

I'll have to confirm but it appears I can turn the first shaft around and run the carrier bearing on the solid shaft where the splines and slip yoke are. I can make it line up with the TC output with 0 angle. I don't need the slip joint on that side of the bearing then, just the u-joint.

I think I can use the 2 driveshafts removed to make the one new one needed.

It's always considered best to use two drive-shafts when they get near the max length. When I worked at IHC, one of my jobs was installing the differentials on the "Sliders" (cab and frame and engine only) . Some wanted tandem axles. Some wanted shorter frames and single axles. Some wanted long frames and single axles. Whatever the customer wanted. So I would have to cut the frame to the customers length and install a single or tandem axle, plus whatever suspension system they chose. (I used a Milwaukee "Mag" drill a lot ! Still have my old 5/8" shank one on the shelf. Weighs a ton though).
On all of them though, IHC never liked drive-shafts to go over 60" long. Sometimes it couldn't be helped as that was what the customer wanted.
I've installed double carrier bearings before because of this length restriction from IHC. Systems always worked great though. Just saying it is better and safer to stay short on the lengths.

 

[Jakelc15]

You should run a few degrees of driveshaft angle to keep the ujoint bearings happy