Deuce hard start

[wildbill81]

All, please forgive if this has been answered but I'm loosing my mind.
I have a 1967 M109, just finished the bob and spent a week fabbing the rear suspension and bed hardware and my issue is it will not start or stay running for the first 5 min without starting fluid sprayed into the intake. I replaced the hydraulic head with a new one I bought through the site and an tired of throwing good money after bad. Is the IP shot? She is also making oil now, but I know there are threads that answer that one. Once it stays running it won't idle below 1000rpm and throtle response is lazy(although I don't realy know what to expect). Finally I drained the radiator this evening and a bunch of oily black stuff came out. Any thoughts or recomendations are appreciated.

 

[doghead]

Stop using ether.

Confirm the hydraulic head is timed correctly.

5 minutes on ether, it may be too late to save this one.

Several members have installed the HH 180 out and used ether, only to find they ruined the engine. Same symtoms as you descibe.

 

[caliber1]

Have you replaced all fuel filters and primed them? Does the in tank pump work? Have you checked the rubber line in tank? Tell us what else you have done, that would help us diagnose.

 

[m-35tom]

you need to check the HH timing. at this point you will have to remove a valve cover to know for sure where the cam is. also sounds like you have a bad 'O' ring on the HH or seal on the booster pump. these are old trucks and will continue to cost until you have everything good.

 

[wildbill81]

Here's what I've done so far:
1. changed all filters as well as put in fresh oil and fuel
2. changed HH based on recomendations from others on this site
3. engine runs and idles after I give it starting fluid for a few minutes( 5 was an over estimate...)
4. HH replaced in time with red/scribed gear per the old one
5. turned up fuel 2 turns before HH replacement based on recomendations by other threads to cure the hard start, but no change(why I bought the HH)
6. I'll check the HH timing procedure in the TM but if anyone has laymens terms on it that would be great.
Thanks

 

[Fredo Corleone]

Fuse in fuel pump bad?

 

[wildbill81]

in tank pump is working

 

[Fredo Corleone]

I find that it is usually something that we say "I checked that" or "that can't be bad".

 

[RedbeardTheZombieHunter]

OK, so you bobbed a 109? I only have this to say.

 

[lawdog1623]

Now i dont know anywhere near as much as most on this site but if i were to take a wild guess i would say your problem rests with that "red scribed mark" you mentioned and the proper timing of the injection pump. I was waiting on tom, gimpy or some of the mystical ss elders with far more experience and knowledge than myself to chime in and diagnose it as being 180 out. Ill place my money on the 180 out probability, sit back and wait to see if im right. opcorn:Im installing an injection pump right now and im understanding that that using the "red scribed mark" to time the pump to the engine isnt confirmation that the pump is properly timed. If you search back through the forums you will find, as i did that your problem is exactly the same as several other folks in a similar situation as yours. You'll also find the remedy clearly given step by step. If theres one thing ive been told by many people here it is to use ether very conservatively or not at all as it can do permanent damage to the motor. If that truck wont run without ether then theres bound to be a fuel delivery problem. Trace it from the tank to the injectors and find it. Check tm 9-2910-226-34 and tm 9-2815-210-34-2-2.

 

[m-35tom]

you don't really say why you changed the HH. did it run just the same before? if so it may have been wrong then also. also remember the red tooth is NOT a timing mark, just a removal indicator, and a way of knowing where the HH is in it's 360° rotation. (it turns at camshaft speed)

 

[lawdog1623]

he shoots, he scores. I knew it was coming. Ill shut up and finish my popcorn now.

 

[doghead]

Guys, I should not need to mention this but obviously I do.

Our site has some simple standards, including capitalization, punctuation and proper grammar. We're just shooting for somewhere between 6th and 9th grade English.

 

[Carlo]

Doghead dont read my letters for my written english is a shame!

 

[wildbill81]

I replaced the HH since it was doing the same thing, that is it needed statring fluid to fire up and a few squirts to maintain an idle, then after a couple minutes it would run on its own. After searching the forums and chatting with others here, the concensus was the HH was going bad and could not supply the required fuel pressure at cranking speeds but once above 5-700 rpms all was well. I turned the motor over till the red tooth was visible, and removed the old and installed the new. I'll search for a pitoral on how to set the timing from scratch and see what happens(I know science beats bullsh*t every day)

 

[doghead]

Doghead dont read my letters for my written english is a shame!

A reasonable effort, is all we ask.

You do much better than many others.

 

[wildbill81]

Ok, here's the latest:
reviewed tech manual for LDS 465 since I could not find the one for my motor LDT 456 1D nor any concrete info on the differences. I lined up the mark on the balancer to the first mark which is per the LDS procedure and the mark and pointer in the viewing window lined up. However the red tooth on the HH was barely visible through the hole in the piece of metal which allows the HH gear to align with the cam. About 5 teeth from the pointer. So I figured maybe the old one was installed improperly and I just perpetuated the error with the new one. I rotated the engine about a 10th of a turn and the HH could be removed. Now with the timing mark on the blancer and the one in the viewing window aligned with thier respective tabs, the HH will not go in because of the cam gear will not allow it. Next step is to pull the valve cover and verify TDC on #1 but I find it hard to believe that with both the pointers on the balancer and IP aligned the HH would not be. Anyone see this before?

 

[wildbill81]

Pics to go along with the above post. If anyone can't make them out the 1st shows the metal disc obscuring the small gear the HH engages with, the 2nd shows the harmonic balancer mark aligned with the timing tab on the front cover, and the 3rd shows the score mark aligned with the pointer through the IP viewing window(sorry it's not rotated correctly). I'm confused since the TM procedure says with the balancer and IP marks aligned correctly (took off frond valve cover to verify) the HH should be able to be installed and the red tooth visible just behind the pointer. Any thoughts?

 

[patracy]

Which mark is that at on the balancer? There's three marks for the different engines. The quill shaft appears to be off slightly. Also your mark is off as well.

You MUST have the marks at TDC of #1. I screwed up when I swapped engines once and had it 180* out. It would start with a lot of coaxing from starting fluid and would only run with heavy throttle. Very lazy throttle response and ran terrible.

 

[patracy]

You'll need to pull an injector or have a valve cover off to confirm TDC on #1.