Deuce off road shortcomings

[KaiserM109]

Now I gotta find one to bob!!

 

[rmgill]

If you want more axle articulation you could build a new pivot to make the axle pivot like on a Scammel Pioneer.

http://www.HMVFTV.com/watch/f78948b91f03172341b7/Scammell-Pioneer-Off-Road-2

 

[Big Mike's Motor Pool]

the biggest short coming i find int he deuce is the lack of powersteerin. this is tough in a tight trail. my truck sees prolly 85% offroad use, i have seriously amazed myself with it sometimes. everyone thinks my arms got big from ..uh.. somthin else but i tell them i drive a deuce

 

[jatonka]

deuce shortcomings

Bjorn, I will test it tomorrow and post up tomorrow night, John T

 

[emr]

RE: deuce shortcomings

I for one think the deuce is an amzing off road vehicle, I just spent last saturday going over and thru many things most would not, Mike U need to ride with me one day, I think Deuces have better traction also...just thinking of some mud I know... ...Randy

 

[Mike_Pop]

RE: deuce shortcomings

But a Deuce will never be a Unimog, why not just stick with what you had? JT

John: I sold my Unimog a year ago. Do you have an extra $40K you want to give me for another one because I certainly don't. I do recall driving your bobbed deuce and it didn't have a very good turning radius.

As stated before, I'm not looking to modify or take a deuce waaaay off road. I was just curious about some of the shortcomings. I know it is not a Unimog and many times I have to remind myself of that when I am off road in my M1009.

 

[Manstein]

I rock crawl a lot in my Wrangler. Off roading with the Deuce is probably a 3rd or 4th part of the design envelope. Ground clearence is one thing, but no lockers, no p.s. are just some of the others. The most important thing is there IS NO ROLL OVER PROTECTION!
I'd crack that problem before I started relocating other components.

 

[drthunder33]

As Manstein stated the deuce could benefit greatly from lockers. I got mine stuck in some mud and I feel that I'd have a much better shot with a locked front and front/rear axle combo.

NDCCs are a joke as well.

Single w/ xls
Lockers front and front/rear
move the toolbox and tank
Air-o-matic

You would have one capable (and useable) 2.5 ton cargo truck

 

[tmallow2004]

Deuce axles and posi trac or lockers

I have a Rockwell FC240 G7 full floating differential on the front of my M35A customized to a 4x4. Common knowledge, I know. But, my question is have Deuces ever been fitted with posi-trac or locking differentials in the Army inventory? And has anyone tried to convert? And, pros and cons?

Thanks,

~Tim

 

[jatonka]

Deuce short comings

Mike Pop, sorry you sold your last Mog, I could let you have $40K for another one, but I don't think it would help you learn anything about keeping what you have when you have the best. As far as my turning radius, It is much tighter than a standard M35 with 9.00x20 tires. You would have to spend some time in a deuce to understand.

 

[tatra813]

RE: Deuce short comings

I had a duece I did a lot of extreme offroading with, I did like it but here are the shortcomings I found.

I put on 11 20 tires and that was nice but all the tires I put on would get huge chunks of rubber chipped out of them , probably old hard tires? stay away from rocky areas

steps and fuel tank need to be relocated to bed (tank anyways)

You must make sure you have a winch on your truck, not many guys can pull a duece out with a pickup or jeep

I didnt find lack of power steering to be a huge problem, the problem I found is when hitting a unexpected obsticle the steering wheel could literally rip a finger off it violently turned so fast, this can be a problem, be careful!!

Yes turning radius is wide but you can get used to it.

Biggest problem is it needs lockers badly!!!! I go stuck in a canyon and couldnt get out because of this, I was very ticked about it. If you do hard wheeling get lockers. #1 on your list aside from the winch, which it isnt worth adding a winch just sell the truck and buy one that has one. Also carry a snatch block and lots of slings/chains

add a hose for filling tires.

I took my duece a lot of places the Jeeps couldnt get once I set it up right.

one other problem is you cant charge up hills and use your momentum to get over obstacles if you have to shift on this hill, it kills all you momentum so this takes getting used to , another reason you need lockers because you have to climb slow and you need all the traction you can get.

If all else fails buy a Tatra, it comes factory with all of the above and some!!!
good luck!!
sorrry about the spelling

I personally wouldnt bob it I like the 6x6 maybe go super singles with 16 20 tires

 

[cranetruck]

RE: Deuce short comings

Single 1100's and no rear interaxle drive shaft will shorten the curb-curb turning circle by almost 10 ft over the dual 900's from actual measurements on a paved parking lot....

My mid-vehicle mounted crane has proven very usefull off-road, the crane can be turned from side to side or front to rear to change the CG as needed (check out a backhoe driving on a side slope) and the hydraulic outriggers one time actually got me out of wet clay up to the diffs by lifting the vehicle straight up. Timbers and rocks had to be placed under the outriggers, which repeatedy pushed them down into the muck untill the truck was lifted up to a point where material could be placed under the tires. It took a couple of hours, but I was able to drive out without help from others.
I have also posted images of the crane used as a winch, sideways and front to back.

A shorter wheel base will help the fuel tank situation or adding a second front axle.

Nothing beats tire chains in mud and snow and should be used as per TM.
http://steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=22588&highlight=chains+lockers

An open cab is a must off-road IMHO.

 

[Jakob]

Re: RE: Deuce short comings

adding a second front axle.

Wouldn't you just basically have a M35/HEMTT hybrid then? That'd be awesome! haha

 

[cranetruck]

RE: Re: RE: Deuce short comings

Well, take the M656 8x8 for example, if it fits under the front bumper (28 inches), the vehicle can proceed. It can climb a 27 inch step without having the fuel tank getting in the way, which is 22 inches above ground.

The Lockheed "Twister" is another good one.

 

[KaiserM109]

RE: Re: RE: Deuce short comings

I either threw the magazine away or gave it away, but about a year ago an offroad mag showed an M715 with front-end Rockwells on BOTH ends. It steered on both ends with power steering and had a great turning radius, great ground clearance. It still had 9.00 x 20 tires, but some type of directional mud lugs. THAT is the rig I would really like to have! I bid on a scrapped out deuce in Colo Spgs 'til the price got rediculous mostly to get the front axle with that in mind. I was going to put a pair of Rockwells under my Jeep J20. I have since committed to putting it back near-original.

I think Chevy tried duel end steering commercially but gave up. I remember some TV commercials but never saw one of the units.

My opinion is the power steering is that it a must. On an elk hunt once I had to drive an F100 with Armstrong steering way back in to bring out 2 elk and a broken down Cushman Trackster. About 3:30 AM I was convinced that I had died and gone to Hexx and my punishment was to drive the truck around that mountain for eternity. The next day I couldn't lift a cup of coffee.

As soon as I have some $$ and a new place to work, I will start looking for the place where old school buses go to die. I know they all have power steering and they are about the same weight class vehicle. I checked out a 2 ton IH and it could be adapted. The reason I didn't buy it was it mounted on the outside of the frame and I want to keep the box inside. There are several interesting threads on this web site about PS conversions.

 

[saddamsnightmare]

RE: Re: RE: Deuce short comings

June 28th, 2008.

Dear Mike:

Sorry you sold your diesel Unimog, but for what it's worth, the Duece will eat the smaller Unimogs as medium duty Tactical CARGO trucks, only the larger diesel can equal them for their utility... Put lockers on a deuce and she would equal or better sthe S series Unimogs, Power steering would be good too, but you better have lots of $$$ in your wallet before you start. I've owned all three units (Mighty Mite M422A1, S404.114, and an M35A2), and each had its uses. Any old West Virginia logging truck driver who drives a deuce could teach most of you guys a few points on operation.... 1. Plan your route carefully, don't high center or roll over the truck, 2: shift to the right gear before you start up or down-NO SHIFTS enroute in rough terrain.... 3. Slow and geared is the way to go, particularly when without a winch; 4: DON'T wrap any thumbs you want to keep around the wheel; 5. Corrollary to #1 above...... CHAIN ALL TEN WHEELS!; 6: Have a fall back plan or route in mind should you find an impassible or impossible obstacle on your route (or carry a chainsaw); 7: DON'T GET STUCK... or know someone with an 800 series wrecker who can get at you from solid ground..... 8: Corollary to #1 above..... DON'T ROLL THE TRUCK... or have a cab door open......!!!!!! 9. Don't use NDT's or at least don't use them without honkin 3 rail chains or 4 rail chains .. and 10: ENJOY the fact some squarehead didn't hide the throwout bearing under the cab in an inaccessible spot....... 11. AMERICAN ENGINEERING... 1948 style....

And about the Mighty Mite..... I had an M422A1... If I know the Mite, If I know the terrain and routes in and out, IF I have other then NDT's or at least NDT's with chains, I can weasel (at least in West Virginia) a Mighty Mite in or out of terrain that will stop a Unimog (mostly on clearances between trees....) that didn't have a chainsaw on board.... GUARANTEED! The problem with the Mite was: NO power to spare, and darn little to use, and that cursed curved front skid plate from the bumper down..... That item could hang you up in mud or snow in a heartbeat, and it wasn't always easy to get untangled.... But if you couldn't climb over it or improvise a ramp so you could, you could almost always find another route with some reconnoisance and common sense...
When you get a vehicle you like.... keep it! You don't sell off friends or family (regrettably it's the law), and a good truck is like that, plus they cost money to buy and money to keep, so don't abuse them.... I, for myself, figure that the rock crawling fraternity might be shy a few bolts in the old cranium mounts... To abuse a machine as they do, and to not respect the machine, is a sure way to get either broke or killed..... I (We) came from a family that bought our trucks to do certain tasks, respected their design, and kept them working for many decades.... as they cost money, they were treated like they cost money. Even our farm tractors were housed and were waxed weekly (my 1958 MF-65 will testify to that), even the deuce gets waxed, though with the CARC paint you'd never know it.....
You guys are free to do what suits you all, but my truck both works and is a historic truck.... I wouldn't want to turn a 2-1/2-5 ton truck into a 1-1/4 to 2-1/2 ton truck.... it wouldn't be able to do the work safely or efficiently that I need it to do, and because I recognize and respect her history. BUT if you have sheer money to burn....buy an Oshkosh or TATRA and go to town..... The most my girl's going to get will be an issue cab heater and possibly, just possibly, a mil-spec Air O Matic..... No winch until she gets the air steering... then a good supply of snatch blocks and chains. And remember... without the right roll bar, you're going to be just a blood topping on a deuce burger.....

Cheers,

Kyle F. McGrogan
N.B. I have a great affection and respect for both the duece and the Unimog, and I have found that they will behave very well and generally always be dependable.... Honor thy Deuce (or Unimog) and thou shalt prosper.... ABUSE thy deuce (or Unimog) and they may eat thou alive....often in a most spectaculary way!!!!

1971 Kaiser Jeep M35A2 Wo/W "Saddam's Nightmare" Desert Storm and Vietnam Deuce, "Packing the GEAR!"
1968 Johnson Corp M105A2 Cargo Trailer, The "BIG" Johnson...
1967 Hercules MEP023A gas genset APU
1963 Swiss Army Cargo Unimog S404.114, Packing a little less GEAR, but still Packing!!!!

 

[Mike_Pop]

RE: Re: RE: Deuce short comings

I guess I was just spoiled with my Unimog. I did some crazy stuff with it. A deuce is a deuce, not a Unimog.

Thanks for all the input, I don't plan on doing ANY major modifications to my deuce. It was more of a curiosity thing.

Also, I seriously doubt that a Mighty Mite can do more than a Unimog. I know that my Mite does not have the ground clearance, frame flex, or wheel travel that any Mog has. You couldn't do this in a Mite:

 

[saddamsnightmare]

RE: Re: RE: Deuce short comings

June 29th, 2008.

Mike:

You should've kept the Unimog, BUT I could find another way around that ledge with a Mighty Mite...... In the east the trick is to be able to avoid the impossible items....., generally trees and cliffs (strip mine highwalls are bad too, and abandoned mine shafts), AND the Mighty Mite CAN be picked up by a fairly light helicopter... so I could still beat your Unimog that way (if I had a small Sikorsky around), that's what those funny brackets on your bumper ends were for...... My mite did rescue work, getting folks out of flooded hollows and places where no other vehicle could go, not fast, not comfortable, but very, very agile with the four wheel independent suspension. Jeff Miller may yet have the spare hub bolts I had machined out back in the 1970's for the Mite, a real pain to make, and prone to failure through the cotter pin holes (bolts were too small (5/8" OD , I believe) and too over-stressed, the weak point in the design. I don't know if anyone makes spares, but mine were longer, using a second nut cottered to lock the first nut on.... The wild thing with your Mite will be to watch the front hubs flex on potholes and rough terrain, these jeeps were so light that even the wheel centers are skeletonized.... And unlike the Unimog, they can run on three wheels (I know, I had to do it once!)!!! Another downside with the Mite (not a problem in Vietnam), was in the late 1970's, West Virginia suffered several winters with -30*f temperatures..... in that condition, even a Mite with side curtains and doors can be unbearably cold. Possibly a problem in Nevada in the winter? At least the Swiss Army Unimogs came standard with a cab heater, better on the driver's side then the other, and better then nothing at all.
NOW if I could only find a reasonable accurate replica of the Swiss top canvas, modified to handle rain better (mine's worn out, and the ears over the cab doors don't stick out far enough to deflect rain away from the side windows and floors.... , retaining the unbuttonable rear window (It does get hot here in Texas in the summer) without having to give up your firstborn (Me, I don't have one.....), as the Germans, Swiss and everyone else seems to think they are gold mines!!!!!
The Mite was a light reconoissance truck, nothing more, nothing less, able to go places in the swamps of Vietnam and preferred for Antarctic and Arctic work due to no coolant system problems in the cold....
And I doubt I would try that ledge crossing trick in the S404.114, as they are a lighter version of your Diesel, no use killing my truck without reason. I have heard a LOT of comments on here in the Unimog section and elsewhere of steering box and panhard beam failures doing that kind of stunt.... Sure, they can do it, but why kill the truck... particularly as parts from Germany are getting very expensive...
And yes, if the fairy godmother drops a wad on my desk, I'd love to have a diesel Unimog like your old truck, just for the ease of getting into a cab that has steps.... Try getting into an S404.114 when you've pulled a back muscle or bruised a disk, heck, even the M35A2's a misery under those conditions. In any case, the price on the Diesel Unimog's (Used) are about like the HMMWV's, the only difference is the Unimog is more capable as a hauling vehicle (Unimogs and M35's are indeed Land Rover, Hummer and almost any other SUV Uber Recovery vehicles.....), and new, well, Man, you best win the lottery for one of those...
In passing, I have noticed that the Unimog owners are just about absolute fanatics over their vehicles.. I suspect they'd trade in the wife for a modification or a new Unimog..... is it a security thing, or just some psycholgical need.....? Smile, gents, and PLEASE, don't bend the MV iron too much, or our insurance will go through the ceiling, just like the civvy PU's driven by pin-heads.....

Smile, they'll wonder what you've been doing with your MV.......IBID: Mike, have you or the other Unimog owners ever considered adapting a Unimog Trailer plug (7 wire) to harness up the essential features (Tail, Stop, Turn) light circuits on the M105A2 Cargo trailers?


With great respect,
Sincerely,

Kyle F. McGrogan

1971 Kaiser Jeep M35A2 Wo/W "Saddam's Nightmare" Desert Storm and Vietnam Veteran Truck
1968 Johnson Corp M105A2 Cargo Trailer
1967 Hercules MEP023A Gas Gen-set APU
1963 Swiss Army Cargo Unimog, S.404.114 MB

 

[flighht2k5]

RE: Re: RE: Deuce short comings

Kyle, you are seriously mistaken. 404's and well all unimog are far superioir to anything th U.S has. Have you ever really looked at the thing. I know that the 404 will be able to run over bumbs like that over and over again wthout breaking. You should look at youtube and check out all the videos of people driving in hellish offroad conditions with relatively stock 404's. And as far as sayng you can go another route with your mighty mite well that could be said about a honda civic. "I drive a honda and I can find another way around it" Come on. Just admit that your mighty duece would never be able to make that. Dont get me wrong I love U.S Equipment. Im in the Army, but we have always been too stubborn to use sometimes superior equipment.

 

[DanMartin]

RE: Re: RE: Deuce short comings

Apples to apples guys...comparing a Mog to a Deuce is like comparing a John Deer tractor to a Freightliner OTR tractor. Both are designed to to completely different things.

The 'Mog started out as basically a farm tractor and has been under constant development since 1947, and has evolved into an amazing machine for military and commercial use. The Deuce is a cargo truck, and is basically unchanged since the first models rolled out in the 50s. It was (primarily) designed to move cargo over unimproved roads and the battlefield. It is loved by many for it's versatility, simplicity, and battle-tested design.

I've heard stories of M44 series trucks doing amazing things (hauling 20K lbs of ammo in Vietnam for example), and staying in active service for over 50 years. I've seen videos of Unimogs doing everything from mowing grass and digging wells to running the Paris to Dakar rally. They are both wonderful machines and I believe have both out-performed the wildest dreams of their original designers.

So, let's leave this one lie...it's not a valid argument. They are both great.