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Deuce purchase issue in California

rustystud

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Woodinville, Washington
Have you tried idaho motorpool? They can't be any further than California. Though their prices may be rediculous. May not be. Can't hurt to check them out.[/QUOTE

Those guys are a scourge here. They buy up the trucks and parts at really high prices which the average guy cannot compete with. I've seen them after an auction with there semi riggs loaded to the gills with there " ill gotten gains ". To win a MEP002 generator you are forced to bid almost up to $3000.00 . My last one cost $2500.00 . My wife almost hit me with a brick !!!! Thankfully after about 3 months, the power went out for 2 days . Of course I bragged up the generator the whole time ;) .
 
161
0
16
Location
Vancouver, Washington
Have you tried idaho motorpool? They can't be any further than California. Though their prices may be rediculous. May not be. Can't hurt to check them out.[/QUOTE

Those guys are a scourge here. They buy up the trucks and parts at really high prices which the average guy cannot compete with. I've seen them after an auction with there semi riggs loaded to the gills with there " ill gotten gains ". To win a MEP002 generator you are forced to bid almost up to $3000.00 . My last one cost $2500.00 . My wife almost hit me with a brick !!!! Thankfully after about 3 months, the power went out for 2 days . Of course I bragged up the generator the whole time ;) .
That's why I lost out on the only 2 Deuces that I have ever seen in this area! I do agree that 850 miles for a first time purchaser is probably a lot but at the same time I have only ever seen 2 deuces for sale up here in Washington even looking through private sales. Frankly, I would say that if you (SP5) have done enough research, prep, and etc, go for it. People here have done recoveries from further away then that though there are many more risks involved. I wish you luck SP5!
 

porkysplace

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Location
mid- michigan
Have you tried idaho motorpool? They can't be any further than California. Though their prices may be rediculous. May not be. Can't hurt to check them out.[/QUOTE

Those guys are a scourge here. They buy up the trucks and parts at really high prices which the average guy cannot compete with. I've seen them after an auction with there semi riggs loaded to the gills with there " ill gotten gains ". To win a MEP002 generator you are forced to bid almost up to $3000.00 . My last one cost $2500.00 . My wife almost hit me with a brick !!!! Thankfully after about 3 months, the power went out for 2 days . Of course I bragged up the generator the whole time ;) .
So the taxpayers are getting a better return on their money .
 

NovacaineFix

Member
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San Diego, California
Bottom line, California clearly states any vehicle with 3 or more axles over I think 6,000 lbs is minimum class b license required. There's no grey area, no ways around it, it's what is required. Now as far as enforcing that law...... You can take a chance driving with a regular class c license and you may or may not get pulled over.
No CDL required in California for Deuces or like me a 5-ton, unless you are using it for commercial purposes.

Yes if you read the law, line by line, it says anything over 6,000 lbs with 3 axles, but it states "Commercial Class B", so unless the vehicle has been titled to a company or you are using the vehicle for commercial purposes, basically getting paid to use it, then you are NOT required to obtain a CDL. So as long as you keep it as a personal vehicle, you are fine.

The classifications for the non-commercial classes, do not qualify unless it is a RV, converted bus or large motorhome, which the deuces and 5-tons are neither.
 

dezert ratt

Member
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Location
menifee, ca
Chp told me since there is not a section for historic tag vehicles in the vehicle code, historic registered trucks fall into the same guidelines as commercial. So 3 axles over 6000 lbs is minimum class B non commercial "being historic you cannot legally be commercial".
Now I'm sure when someone gets in trouble for being out of class and they take it to court to fight it, we will get our answer.
 

dezert ratt

Member
300
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Location
menifee, ca
I was adding that I talked directly to a Leo and he told me directly how him and the other officers around him would enforce such a situation. So yes it's a old thread, but I was adding current info to it.
Still people will question the rules. I am driving out of class and have been for the whole time I've owned mv's. I've been pulled over and cited for vehicle violations, but yet to be questioned or detained for driving out of class.
Just as a lot of other people have stated in these threads, when in doubt go the way you know is legal so when questions are asked you went by the book. That would be 3 axles over 6000lbs, class b non commercial with a air brake endorsement.
 

quickfarms

Well-known member
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Orange Junction, CA
I was adding that I talked directly to a Leo and he told me directly how him and the other officers around him would enforce such a situation. So yes it's a old thread, but I was adding current info to it.
Still people will question the rules. I am driving out of class and have been for the whole time I've owned mv's. I've been pulled over and cited for vehicle violations, but yet to be questioned or detained for driving out of class.
Just as a lot of other people have stated in these threads, when in doubt go the way you know is legal so when questions are asked you went by the book. That would be 3 axles over 6000lbs, class b non commercial with a air brake endorsement.
If you read the actual CA vehicle code it states with a class c you can only operate a 3 axle vehicle with a gvw of 6,000 or less.

The non commercial b is for house cars, motor homes, over a certain length.

The non commercial a is for house cars, motor homes, fifth wheel and horse trailers.

So the only applicable licenses are a class b, or a, CDL.

I have my Class A CDL so I do not worry about the exact wording but this is from memory.

Yes I have been checked several times over the years.
 

NovacaineFix

Member
662
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Location
San Diego, California
I think most of the confusion comes from just reading the CDL requirements and not looking at the full definition of the law and/or vehicle code(s).

Let's break it down in simplified terms, your interpretations may differ as well as each State's, [I am using California, to stay on topic] but they are all, in essence, based off of the Commercial Vehicle Safety Act of 1986 (Public Law 99-570, section 12001-12019, page 171 if you are wondering). Link>http://uscode.house.gov/statutes/pl/99/570.pdf

California's Vehicle Section 15250, sites the above Commercial Vehicle Safety Act, as well. Link >https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d6/c7/a5/15250

The California Commercial Driver's Handbook, which you can download straight from their site at
Link>https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/wcm/c...f2-a8ed-480619084886/comlhdbk.pdf?MOD=AJPERES clearly states the requirement on page 1-1, highlighted in yellow:
Screen Shot 2015-10-24 at 10.25.58 PM.jpg

The Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration, also defines CDL as "Commercial Driver's License" as a license used for operating a commercial vehicle, as for trade or commerce.
Link>https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/registration/commercial-drivers-license/drivers

So in easy terms, do you need a CDL in California? Technically, No.
Does this mean that CHP does not have the power to stop you? No
Will you have to try to defend this in court? Possibly, depends on what you are doing with your MV, the type of MV and how your interaction with the officer is. If you explain your position and state the facts of the law on how it is written, you have a very good chance. Being a A-hole or not having the facts, will get you nothing but aggravation and possibly a ticket or more.

What it means, as long as your MV is not being used for any commercial purposes and strictly used for personal uses, it by definition does not fall into the category of commercial vehicle. I know this sounds like a technicality or a loophole, but Commercial by definition means for commerce or trade, does it not? The CDL requirements are for "Commercial Vehicles" categorized by weight, type and axles. For example, a dump truck for a excavating company will need a different CDL Class and endorsement than a Hazardous Tanker truck used for a chemical company.
Many would ask the fact, then why don't I need a CDL to drive a vehicle for work that is company owned? Simply, because most vehicles under the 26,001 lbs. GVWR do not meet the requirement for the CDL, otherwise every pizza delivery person would need one.

I know some will comment based on this info-graphic Link>https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/cdl_htm/lic_chart
Screen Shot 2015-10-24 at 9.27.35 PM.jpg
from CA DMV, that states 3-axle vehicles over 6,000 pounds will require a Class B Commercial, but again, the term "Commercial" signifies that the vehicle in question is being used for commercial purposes. Technical, but arguable. Ther Class B non-commercial does not qualify for most MV's, so that is just no question there.

Ask yourself these questions:

Are you getting paid to drive your MV?
Are you driving your MV for work or to work?
Are you driving your MV and getting compensated in any other means than money? ) trade or barter can be considered the same as financial compensation.
Do you drive your MV with passengers (example as like a tour bus or taxi service)?
Is there any company logo or lettering on the side of your MV to indicate that it is being used for commercial purposes?
Is the title of your MV being held by a company? (is it in your legal name, not a business or company name)

So in basic terms, if you have a CDL and own a MV, great, you have nothing to worry about as long as you don't do anything that will cause you to lose your CDL. If you don't have a CDL, you may get hassled, but if you print the above sections that define CDL requirements and present your case civilly you should be fine.

And to answer the question about Historic Plates, it is a way to register your heavy MV without the weight fees, not to circumvent the fee process as there are restrictions and certain qualifications to meet the "Historic" requirements Link>https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/detail/pubs/vctop/vc/d3/c1/a8/5004
 
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rustystud

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You make a good argument Novacainefix but you forget that any 3 axle vehicle is by definition a "commercial" vehicle. A tractor is a vehicle but it is regulated as a Farm vehicle. What if I don't own a farm, is it still a Farm vehicle ? In the eye's of the law YES. Therefore you cannot drive it on the roads without special permits or restrictions. I would challenge you to take a tractor on the hiway. I'm sure the LEO would understand that since you don't own a farm that is a valid reason for taking it out on the road. This also applies to our Military vehicles. Some you can take on the roads ,but they really frown on taking a Tank on the road. It still is a Military Vehicle, just one that is not allowed. When you go to buy a Semi-truck you must go to the companies "Commercial" division. I know since I worked at IHC in the 1970's. You can buy a GMC truck at any car dealer that sells GM vehicles but to buy a "Top Kick" truck you would have to go to a "commercial" seller. So back to the question. Some states take a very "lassez faire" attitude towards Military vehicles so you will have no problems. Others go by every letter of the law. So check your state requirements.
 

NovacaineFix

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Location
San Diego, California
Rustystud, you present a good rebuttal and I would say that my interpretation is not law and I would refer to a lawyer who specializes in vehicle code over myself before taking that leap of faith.

I agree with you that some States are not as clear or enforcing of the laws/vehicle codes when it comes to Military Vehicles, I would have to guess simply because they are in the extreme minority of drivers and spend the least amount of time occupying the roads, but that is just my guess, with nothing to back it up.

I'm not sure what your State of Washington defines tractor and Farm tractor or if they are one in the same.
I would take your example of a tractor as a farm vehicle for how California defines it. A "Farm" tractor, as per California, is not the same as a tractor trailer truck and is defined as such under Vehicle Code 36015. [ Link> https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv/?...mv_content_en/dmv/pubs/vctop/vc/d16/c1/36015]

Now, according to the Code, it does provide a provision for use of the "Highway" but nothing is mentioned about "Freeways." Now with the word Freeway excluded from that Code, that tells me that access for a tractor is fine for a highway use but not for freeway use.
What's the difference, you may ask? [I used some examples from your area]
A highway is a road that, at time may be interrupted or controlled by the use of stop lights and may have intersections. [example like Steven's Pass Highway US-2]
A freeway is a stretch of road sometimes called an expressway, that has no lights or intersections [example like I-5]

I am sure that any reasonable person would not take a "farm" tractor on the freeway, but I could be wrong. I am also sure that somewhere there is probably a farmer out there that has land next to a freeway and has to cross it at some point, how he does it, I'm not sure.

You are correct about buying a truck through a commercial dealer, such as the Top Kick or Kodiak, I can't argue about that. What I can argue is the intent of that truck after it is purchased. You could argue this fact by this picture, this truck was available through commercial dealers, but the intent of its final use could be open for interpretation.
2007-gmc-topkick-ironhide1-300x183.jpg
I could clearly use this "Commercial Truck" for personal use.

I would a bus as a rebuttal example, but the vehicle code in California clearly defines that.
As per your tank example, yes I could understand why LEO would be upset by anyone driving one of those on the highway/freeway or streets.
1. they are usually tracked vehicles.
2. A tank is NOT designed for any road use though you could drive it on roads.
3. the tracks of a tank would tear the road surface up, same as a tracked excavator would, but I think a tank is much heavier.
4. A tank does not have all the necessary equipment to be legalized for road use as many vehicle codes define. (examples: taillights, headlights, windshield, wipers, horn, turn signals, brake lights, etc.) though I think it would be cool to see a tank riding down the road, as long as it was in front of me.

But like you said in your closing sentence, check your local or State laws, don't take my word as the Gospel Truth, 'cause I'm not that religious.
I think the thing with California is that the Code is so broad in definition that it lends itself to be interpreted in different ways, so if you can prove that "your" interpretation seems valid and you can back it up with printed facts and examples, then you have a very good chance.
Until they clearly define the description of the many types of vehicles, including MV's, I am going to drive mine until they can prove to me that I am not allowed to under the Law and Vehicle Code.

Happy Motoring!
 

JDToumanian

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Location
Phelan, CA
You make a good argument Novacainefix but you forget that any 3 axle vehicle is by definition a "commercial" vehicle.
The supervisor at the Barstow DMV told me, after the clerk said no CDL is required to drive my deuce, "There's no such thing as a historic commercial vehicle. Once you register any vehicle historic, it becomes an automobile." Indeed, the registration for my deuce states, "type of vehicle - automobile" not commercial.

Jon
 

rustystud

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Woodinville, Washington
I totally agree with you NovacaineFix. There really is no defining statement when it comes to Military Vehicles. Since we are such a small community they probably don't feel the need to wright specific laws for us. So like I said, check with you local transportation department. Oh by the way, Tanks actually do have brake lights and headlights. No horns, though anyone seeing you I'm sure would get out of your way ! I was a Tank Crewman in the Marines. M60A1-3 Rise Passive. I do miss blowing things up every now and then and then driving over them crushing them into the ground ! :p
 

NovacaineFix

Member
662
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Location
San Diego, California
Thank you Rustystud, I did not know that tanks do indeed have brake and headlights, well headlights I could see but none of the other equipment.
By the way, I want to say thank you for your service and sorry that you don't have things to blow up anymore, lol.

Yes, like you said, Don't take my word as LAW, especially if you do not live in California, as every other State may have their own set of laws or codes. It is best to educate yourself on the existing laws and codes so that if there is a problem and you need to defend your situation, you can do so in a clear and civil manner. You never know, you may learn something in the process.
Also remember, most LEO's are not in the business of educating you on the laws and codes, half the time they have to look up the code and apply the violation to fit if it isn't as clear. This is where knowledge is power.
 

saddamsnightmare

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Location
Abilene, Texas
October 30th, 2015.


Back to the OP's original question:

1. IF the man can have the seller in CA have a local LEO do the VIN Verification on an Oregon vehicle title application, and send it and the title to Oregon to the purchaser once he has been paid for the truck,

2 And, the purchaser obtains insurance and a trip permit from the Oregon DMV.....

3. It would seem that under the Federal pact of reciprocity between the states, that a holder of an Oregon DL (rated up to but not exceeding 26,001 LBS GVW), should be able to drive the vehicle out of California 1 way under the 72 hour provision of the Oregon one trip vehicle permit. There is no way on God's green earth that CA could enforce their peculiar DL laws in this case on a vehicle bound out of state and owned by a non-commercial use owner in another state (Oregon). It would seem to be doubtful that CA could impose their reg's on a privately owned, non-commercial deuce registered in another state and passing through, without it ending up in Federal court, but the vehicle would have to be in a mechanically safe condition to be operated on the public highways.

Otherwise, Texas, Illinois and any other state could nail California drivers who do not know the nuances of the various state and local DMV regulations...... Whether I would drive an unknown deuce 850 miles without a thorough mechanical inspection and repairs...doubtful. But then, that's just me. I hate sitting at the side of a road waiting for any wrecker.2cents

I wish the OP luck in any case, but I would advise him to read the sticky on what it costs to own an MV in the deuce sticky section.....:-D
 
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