Diablo Build Update (pics)

[Recovry4x4]

Ain't I the lucky one here. Devilman96s shop is a 45 minute ride from my house and I've got an open invitation. Looks like I've finally found some help with my piddly welding chores.

 

[devilman96]

I told ya!!! Yer more than welcome!!! Although too much time spent here has a habit of wrecking personal relationships, marriages, wives, etc... Something about being more in love with your projects and blah blah blah... I don't know... I rarely listen, kinda thick headed im told!!!

Have Tig.... bring the tractor!

 

[devilman96]

AH.... Slow start this week I got food poisoning Sunday night and spent Mon and Tues flat on my back... The joy, the fun!!!

I managed to track down a rear sliding window today and it should be here tomorrow so I am hopeful about getting the rear section finished. (will post PN's and the like)

We are SLOWLY progressing on the top... This is about as much "fake it as you make it" as one could get... The bends make this a really difficult build. We axed out the center which was ironically the only "good" piece of sheet metal to the whole top (rust wise). I am in the process of forming out the bend supports and ribbing while trying NOT to end up with a sun roof!!! Maybe tomorrow it will be nicer to me!

The AC guys tell me they have managed enough parts and pieces for a full 24V system to install like a Vintage Air jobber as soon as they are done ordering it in and adding their 30% I can go pick up my parts and pieces Actually I cant complain I am getting everything for almost 400$ less and they have been really helpful and understanding about my anal retentiveness!!! .... Now if a certain on line government bidding site would PROCESS MY EUC life would be grand hu??!!!??

 

[Armada]

Lookin good!!

 

[cranetruck]

Make sure you add a drain hole or two along the bottom of the door.
I wish the doors had larger access panels, they are a PITA to work on...

 

[devilman96]

Ok back to the sliding window bit...

You would be surprised at what a pain it is to find a window that will work with flat sheet metal!!! I never realized that 99% of truck windows have a convex to them both horizontally and vertically (see side pic).

If I have the pics in the right order you can see it unboxed, then a template cut out of the box it came in, the hole cut and reinforcement laterals installed, then the window installed...

I was hoping to find one a little more square but length and convex was the hang up. Not to bad of a look and I think it will make the over all driving experience much more pleasant with a better rear view...

rear window was made by CR Laurence Co PN DVW1400BT intended for use on a 84-95 Toyota PU.

 

[wallew]

DM,
YOU KNOW I love your work. But that window just looks too pick up truck. Could you have taken the two non moving pieces out and then had them cut down so they would be rectangle (square?) and then modified the down arms to bend flat?

Yes, it's a lot of work and I'm NOT SURE it would be worth it.

OR maybe scrounging one from a bus? I don't know, it just looks too modern to be on a deuce that was designed in what, late forties, early fifties?

And I can't wait to see BOTH the finished electric windows and A/C. As both are 'stealth' installs it doesn't effect the over all look. OK, the up/down switches for the windows MIGHT look a little out of place. If you are lucky, the a/c defroster install will basically look like it was SUPPOSED to be there. That humongous hole for the radio - does it weaken the overall construction of the steel dash?

I'm going to mount mine against the back wall and try and figure out how to mount the IR remote receiver so I don't need to actually touch the radio. As it will mainly be stuck on XM radio, I am hoping to be able to do this. And right next to it will be the CB radio and the 24v to 12v converter. This has two 24v inputs and two 12v outputs. And it was made for the military, as it came wrapped up in the brown paper outside/shiney foil on the inside and has numbers on the bottom.

We all have our own vision. And you are blazing a trail that lots of us are watching closely. Not for mistakes, but for ideas we can uh, borrow. Yeah, that's it, BORROW those ideas.

Keep up the great work and as usual WE WANT PIX. Lots and lots of pix.

jim

 

[hot rod deuce]

HEY man i was going to do that! i wasnt sure i would like the tapers on the sides but hey it looks alright. I was thinkin maybe older 50's pick ups have a little more square window but i too ran into lots of curves at the class shop. Either way the stock slider in my hard top is way too small.
Nice to have another hot rodder!

 

[wallew]

HRD,
+1 on the stock rear window being WAY too small. With the vinyl top on it's not as big a deal, because vision out the back is limited. BUT with no top or folding seats/side slats mounted, vision out the rear isn't bad. IF you remove the tail gate, the vision is better still.

So, unless you just GOTTA have a tail gate in place, removing it will give you great vision. It might even improve the mpg, but I can't say for sure.

Dman,

I do love what you are doing. Being at the head of the line like this means you are going to have to make choices that I could NOT have made because I'm as 'anal retentive' I believe the phrase was about yourself.

Yeah, and dag gummit, I'm opinionated as all get out. Which is why I do most of my own work. If ya want somethin done right.... you know the rest.

jim

 

[devilman96]

That window was a tuff deal... You can not reshape auto glass, its tempered. CL will custom make anything you want... You just have to pay for it... They have a window that is almost identical to a stock deuce window but 4 times the size... its not the look I wanted... http://www.crlaurence.com/adv/catalogs/CRL43/497.pdf Its made for a horse trailer and well... I want a TRUCK! lol Squared sides would have been nice though!!!

I don't know if I am blazing a trail or slamming my head into a brick wall but I am thick headed enough to give it a whirl ether way... I just wish there were 20 more hours in the day and I had 4 more pairs of hands...

and Wallew.... Steal away... Did you see the dash mounted grab bar I made after your comments about the truck pics Ken posted??? LOL

I should have the dash done tomorrow... hopefully.... If so I will get some finished pics of it up... Its gonna take a boat load of filling and blocking to get it straight enough for gloss black!!!

 

[Desert Rat]

DM96,

WOW I wish I had the time to do that!!!!! I'm taking notes too. I'm getting ready to make 'Storm into a tractor in a few weeks. I have all the pieces just not the time.

 

[Elwenil]

There are a variety of single pane sliding windows available for the RV industry that are flat. They are made in just about every size and configuration you can imagine. I think one of the "bathroom" sized window would work well for the back of a cab. Typical short, wide window.

 

[OPCOM]

A/C

Please elaborate.. Any idea how many BTUs it will take to cool a M35 cab? I'm thinking 36,000 (3 tons of air)?

Seriously I'd like to A/C mine, but if I'm going to do it, I want 70 degrees, not 80!

PJ

 

[devilman96]

http://www.danhard.com/sub11.htm I am using the first unit listed on this page...

 

[devilman96]

This posting is a copy from http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t=1083&highlight= I wanted to keep all of the information im working with in a single thread...

I've been working on my AC system for a few weeks now, I started some time after reading the above thread and feel like I have a little more to contribute to it I know this is LONG but I felt it needed to be in order to address some of the issues and special considerations with a Deuce and most other MV's.

Quickly "about me" so you know where I am coming from... I tend to research things to death and poke up and down every avenue in the process before plunking my hard earned cash down on new toys. Being POOR I decided the best route to research everything mentioned and then some... I have 19 combined years in auto, diesel, small and heavy equipment, welding, machine and fab, aircraft, hydraulics, electronics, HAVC, and a few other ventures than don't pertain. I don't know everything but I know a lot about most things and I can screw something up just as bad (if not worse) than the next guy!!!

For all of the function and usefulness to a MV having a AC system was NEVER a considered option on these things... The electrical issues of 12V vs. 24V can be over come by using 24V parts but it does not elevate the cost or frustration of finding them. It is very possible to install a 12V AC system into your truck but I would never consider doing this with a transformer or "inverter". The load requirements of a 12V AC system are up there when added together... Condenser fan - 15amps... Evaporator fan - 20amps... Compressor clutch - 20amps... Servos, relays, etc add a few more; now your feeding a 60 power monger through a 24V "step down" of some type or another on a 60 -80 amp charging system... Doesn't take long to see the problems coming. So you ether install an "add on" 80amp 12V system into your rig or look else where...

With 24V you can more or less cut the amperage numbers down by about 50 - 60% being that the higher the voltage the less the amperage. Now were in the 30amp range which is a lot more manageable on a stock 60-80amp charging system. With this thinking I started mulling over what to do and hit the next wall with vacuum. There are a billion variations to AC but im sticking with the 3 types of basic AC controls in automotive applications there are cable (very old) vacuum (standard and very common) and servo driven (becoming more the standard in today's cars). You can put in a "pod" which is a stand alone system made to go between seats, etc but cab space is at a premium in theses things as is... Diesels have nil for vacuum so you have to axe the most common type AC systems unless you want to install a vacuum pump on your rig. Cable are available and are made in kit form, some can be found in pre 1980s cars and trucks so it is possible to do some salvage work but then your going to get into the R12 / R134 modifications and dilemmas which I will blurb through later. Servos are the best functioning systems but I have to date not located a 24V set up, so its ether 12V or bust on that one.

Other fruit for thought on a AC system...

Climate - Im in Florida... its F' ING HOT here (sorry there is no better way to sum it up!) The system has got to be able to transfer the heat and do so quickly and easily.

Insulation and air leaks - I plan on doing a LOT of insulation, under coating and sealing but I know I can not get everything as well as I would like to so the system is going to have to cope with a certain amount of loss due to vehicle design.

Glass - Great heat transfer, horrible insulator... There is a good bit of glass to a Deuce and being that I added a 18" X 50" rear slider to my hard top Im not helping... Window tint is going to be a must but again the system is going to have to over come vehicle and dumb owner design.

Paint - Lets not forget the dark OD green! Not much for reflection...

Heavy Truck - These things shake like they ought to and are build for on and off road use. Aluminum parts, tubing and compression fittings really have no place on these (or any) heavy truck. O ring (tube or fore seal type) steel fittings should be used when ever possible. 500 PSI burst hose is mandatory on AC however there is nothing wrong with stepping this up with a standard 3000 PSI hydraulic type hosing, the cost diffrence is little if anything at all. (provided your buying or installing with the right people).

R12 / R134 - Yes you can still buy R12 and yes you can convert R12 but the systems were never designed for it. Efficiency suffers GREATLY when you put 134 in a 12 system, in some climates its not so noticeable but in most where having a AC is a serious thought IT WILL BE. 134 is about 20% less efficient in heat transfer so the evaporator has to be larger, the condenser should be designed for it and the correct expansion valve and or orifice tube used. If not 95 degrees outside will get you 82 inside because the gas can not transfer the heat. Don't mistake what I am saying, I've done a lot of conversions and have had great results with them... You just have to work around the issues.

With all of the above buzzing in my head there seems to be a lot of negative but I try to be a realist when it comes to expecting the worst and getting the best out of a situation... I decided even though I am installing a 12V system for power accessories, radios, etc I wanted to keep it small and get the AC on the 24V side, the stock charging system with 60 amps of output does not have a lot using it.... You might as well make the best of it. No pod type AC systems!!! I want a standard looking under dash type install. A/C and heat both are a must for me. When going through all of this head ache and not installing defrost in the process and leaving your self wiping the windows with a rag is feeble minded in my humble opinion. (yes defrost is a very over looked and UNDER mentioned option in aftermarket installs)

The first few calls I made in regards to 24V stuff gave me a mild stroke!!! Im "in the biz" so to speak on heavy equipment and automotive parts but when you mention 24V to 12V guys their eyes get some weird $ sign glaze over them. Truthfully there shouldn't be more than a 20$ cost difference (if anything) but places that sell things are in the business of making money. I was hunting a compressor first, doing so just for pricing to see whom I was going to deal with... A great example was Napa (not the best place to buy AC parts) I have a commercial account and buy heaps from these guys daily... A 12V run of the mill new compressor is about 300$ (should be about 250$) add the words "with a 24V clutch" and its over 700$ list price... Heavy equipment parts and automotive AC places were the same... You HAVE TO go to a good AC shop that is use to handling both auto and heavy trucks to avoid the 24V $ look!!! Hunting down a 24V compressor is a great way of "feeling out" suppliers for both their pricing and experience with AC in general... If they act as if 24V is something odd and unusual with a weird price you know your talking to the wrong people... If they don't see 24V compressor as a big deal and their in the 250$ range, ask about a 24V blower / condenser set up and see if seems like a biggie (swapping a 12V for 24V electronics is NOT a big event)... If a big mysterious event to them your proably getting warm on finding a parts supply...

Before I get to far ahead of myself.... The following is what I looked into and what I did or didn't find regarding some of the ideas mentioned in the thread above....

Vintage Air... Some of the best AUTOMOTIVE kits around... Hands down they are second to none in development and research for their products. People my knock them but they offer more than anyone can part or piece from any number of catalogs. The down side is they get top dollar for their products, they are 12V systems, their "dealers" are well... Shaky at best, I found everything from DOA businesses to home and commercial businesses whom do nada for auto work selling systems. If you have a LOCAL dealer and are comfortable with them you would proably feel different but everyone I contacted in and out of state was big on selling a kit for a "car" but very small on knowledge, support, etc for custom installs, and VERY slow on getting returned calls... The product is great but if you are going the DIY route and know a little but not everything about A/C work you could find yourself in a lot of trouble with a MV.... With a 67 Camaro it would be quite different!!! Still.... hardware wise these guys have it all but you are on your own for figuring out what parts and pieces to order... A spec'ed out kit for a Deuce without condenser, fan and installation in 12V was 975$ ... OUCH!!

Thermo King... I searched high and low for this allusive beast for about a week... After about 25 phone calls to different dealers in Florida and then in Texas and eventually the factory in several departments and offices I gave up. I was told many times that TK manufactured various military applicable products since the 1950's but none were valuable and none were known of which would fit a truck/tractor application.... With the exception of a rear cab mounted unit as found on semi trailers and one console type (pod) unit which could possibly fit between bucket seats... The last person I spoke with was a Nam Vet whom had been employed by TK since 1975, he was a motor pooler and knew exactly what a M35 was,knew his stuff, was extremely helpful and so on.... Very much reassured me (kindly) that I was beating a very dead horse!!!
Unless someone can produce a PRODUCT NUMBER, PN or something from TK Im gonna call this one a myth?? I was really hoping that this would not be the case as a 24V drop in kit of sorts would be a dream!!! I have a feeling someone saw a installed system at a TK dealer using some TK parts that was a "custom jobber"...

HUMMV Kits... These are available on the market, I think Saturn was even advertising them on their site not to long ago... Its a sound idea but I did not like the old reviews of the first civilian Hummer's AC performance. I think it would be a easy upgrade to a actual HUMMV with a few mods and tweaking to bring the system up to better functioning but there is still the 12V factor and the kits are only partial so your still left hunting parts and pieces, making hoses, buying a compressor, etc. It leaves a lot to the imagination and a lot to the unknown when it comes to final performance. I felt like I could have made it work with out much issue but the lingering 12V factor really affected my final decision later in buying.

Window / side cab mount units ... I couldn't stomach hanging something like that off of her!

Roof mounts... There are a lot of varieties of these out there in 24 volt... Some use a engine driven compressor and some you just bolt on, wire and "poof" instant AC... Not a bad deal if you have a box on the back! Personally I see some hang ups... A hard top would never support the 200+ pounds that some of these weigh with out some serious reinforcement being done. Even then I would venture to say off road activity would be a issue with weight, bouncing and sagging. Also height for me personally would be an issue, I could see my brandy new AC unit being knocked flat off by a tree branch on a weekend of rowdy redneck Deuce abuse!

After making a lot of calls and chancing a lot of leads (see below) I ended up going with a company called Polar Bear Inc www.polarbearinc.com the guy I dealt with was named Joe, nice guy, knows his stuff, was more than willing to listen, ask questions, ANSWER QUESTIONS, lay out options and investigate minor details. (zero solicitation here) I laid out the details of what I wanted and why and he simply understood and was willing to do the home work to help find the right product. In the end I opted for an after market kit (PN 00204-HC) of sorts with a few custom add on's. It has what I wanted in one package with AC, heat, defrost, under dash mounting with in dash or under dash cable controls, it also comes with vents, ducting and so on. The air box manufacture was willing to custom build the unit for 24V Joe is adding in the switching, dryer, 2 groove 24V compressor, and misc parts and pieces for 725$. 475 for the box, 225$ for the compressor (new), and a few $ in misc parts and pieces... I am still doing the install myself supplying the condenser with fan and doing my own hosing.

As I said before... this is a lot of info but I thought I would share the hours of reading and phone calls for those looking at buying a system for their Deuce... My parts are in a pile and I will be posting pics and so on of my install as Im building under the thread below so keep checking and eventually it will all get posted!!! http://www.steelsoldiers.com/index.php?name=PNphpBB2&file=viewtopic&t= 4997

 

[devilman96]

OK... the FRIGGEN dash!!! I've been sick as a dog for the past week and am moving slow but its coming... Its not easy deciding "weld"... OR... "vomet".... wooo hooo...

Ken was nice enough to also donate this part to my little project (ty)... He had this propped up for the trash pile so I guess you could call it a salvage jobber. It may not look like a lot but I had 16 holes to weld up, patch, or relocate!!! I can not say enough nice things about Ken he was even nice enough to run out and take pics under his dask this past weekend for measurments and post them so I could work out the light spacing... Its nice having a fellow MV'er so close!!!

I needed to make room in the dash for the radio at minimum so I closed up the gauge opening to 11 X 8 inches and relocated the operator controls all to the left of the wheel. The windshield washer valve stayed the same, I am getting rid of the ignition switch and start button for a keyed ignition which is now located about 1/2 higher than the start button would be. The light switch will go digital and the front locker will be just above on its own little panel. I have also added another opening to the bottom left for a toggle switch plate for some of the toys and gizmos I plan on installing. Its been my experience that nothing stays the same so giving yourself a removable panel is a better idea than drilling holes in the dash, the panel can be replaced easily as things change. Another addition was 2 cigarette lighters above the radio, one will be a lighter and the other a accessory power point for phones, etc.

After all of the moving and hacking I took about 8 hours of sanding, filling and priming to get things in order enough for gloss black!! I applied 3 coats of black, wet sanded and 3 coats of clear. Its not "perfect" but I am spraying outside so a bug or two is to be expected, hopefully a little wet sanding and a buff will take care of them.

I will do the steering mount, glove box, grab bar and switch plates in OD, hopefully after they are put on it will look more like a dash than a empty panel. Someone asked if the dash was weaker with the radio opening, no... Its actually stiffer with all of the welding and shrinking the opening down.

It's a small part of the over all truck but It something I have to look at every second im driving... I have about 35 hours in this damn thing but I think it will be worth the efforts in the end.

Oh.... and NO CAL DEUCE comments from the peanut gallery up the street!!! ... I plan on making this the ONLY glossy part on the truck!!!

Hopefully it will be back to finishing the top's sheet metal over the weekend...

 

[Recovry4x4]

What about that sissy bar, ya ain't gonna chrome that? What kind of an air conditioned, insulated, bobbed, power windowed stereoed out deuce with an ignition key doesn't have a chrome sissy bar?

 

[hot rod deuce]

Hey, did you ever consider a complete 12 volt conversion? Makes life ALOT simpler. The starter is a simple 40MT(?or older?) AC DELCO unit. Im sure you could find one. I converted when I put the Cummins in and love it.
The flasher even works on 12 volts, I hear that the new style Lighted light switches do also.

Headlights are lots cheaper too

 

[devilman96]

Ok that perked my ears... no I didn't know you could get a 12V starter for the MF.... Is there a alt that will bolt up to the stock bracket? Im thinking a Delco 12SI (150AMP) used on 3406 B AND E AND 3408 CAT engines would prolly fit but I don't have the truck to be sure...

I was calculating the batteries with such a set up... The stock box will hold 3 8434/78 gel cells... In parallel that would be 3000CCA 2310CA with a 360 min RC factor... Not to shabby, a lot lighter, easier to deal with and a hell of a lot more power than the 6TL's have... A single 8D or 4D gel cells (which I have 4 of sitting here) would work also but would not have quite as much kick behind it.

 

[rmgill]

Personally, I'd pad the bejezus out of that grab bar. Get a good hard run through some bumpy stuff and your passenger will leave indentations with their hands. Work on the dash area under there and not clear the grab bar and it'll leave indentations in you if you thump your head (or if you're in an accident and your passenger goes forwards).