BnaditCorps
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so maybe my guess was correct...
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DUKW Crash Fatalities
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jeepsguy
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Seems like the DUKW was safer than the bus.
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Please keep the thread on track and refrain from discussing taxes. It is a sore enough subject with people the way it is and using the deaths of people on a bus is not the place to bring it up and no, I don't care what is mentioned in some article about what boat ramp they used for the vehicle.
BnaditCorps
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Buses aren't designed to take a direct hit in the side. The DUKW's also have to be tough enough to hit the water with the front at speed, I bet afterwards it could have gone on to the water and floated.
saddamsnightmare
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September 28th, 2015
Gents:
I wouldn't make any bet as to the vehicle's current seaworthiness, as the front end has sustained significant damage on the DUKW. Duck Boats is admitting that this vehicle did not have an axle upgrade that they recommended to their operators, so I will bet the court case will be interesting. The upshot is, that all DUKW owners will likely need to do the upgrades if they wish to continue running on the public roads, even as an antique vehicle, as the axle technology is 70+ years old, and wasn't all that great even back then.
This may be the same issue we will face with the later trucks, as even if they are robust, the components are aging and can fail unexpectedly. I will bet you that the DUKW owners insurance companies will be watching the NTSB investigation very closely, and the results will likely impact on all the owners in increased rates (just a guess-it is the usual result of an NTSB investigation).
Again, one can only pray for the survivors and for the deceased, as they need the prayers more then the truck's owner's at this point.
Gents:
I wouldn't make any bet as to the vehicle's current seaworthiness, as the front end has sustained significant damage on the DUKW. Duck Boats is admitting that this vehicle did not have an axle upgrade that they recommended to their operators, so I will bet the court case will be interesting. The upshot is, that all DUKW owners will likely need to do the upgrades if they wish to continue running on the public roads, even as an antique vehicle, as the axle technology is 70+ years old, and wasn't all that great even back then.
This may be the same issue we will face with the later trucks, as even if they are robust, the components are aging and can fail unexpectedly. I will bet you that the DUKW owners insurance companies will be watching the NTSB investigation very closely, and the results will likely impact on all the owners in increased rates (just a guess-it is the usual result of an NTSB investigation).
Again, one can only pray for the survivors and for the deceased, as they need the prayers more then the truck's owner's at this point.
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It is up to 5 fatalities now.
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Let us remember to pray for ALL who face the traumas of this and every wreck... The first responders, the investigators, those working the insurance claims and - YES - even the attorneys and their staffs. We almost automatically pray for the victims and their families, but the extended circle - the collaterally damaged - must also be uplifted in these tragedies. Pray for the doctors, nurses and other caregivers that they too will diligently perform their practices and the total healing and restoration be the result. Pray for the deathcare professionals and clergy who now have the families of five casualties to assist. Pray for the engineers, metallurgists, and others who will perform the forensic analysis of the failed part(s) that their due diligence be precise. And finally, trust God for the outcome.
AMEN.
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When I was a claims adjuster one of the hardest things I had to do was meet with the families of those killed in an auto accident. Usually it was at the wrecking yard as they were gathering their loved ones belongings. You feel helpless trying to comfort someone while getting them to sign paperwork they have no concern for.
RDUKW
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I doubt and hope that the collectors are not required to update the axels. The tour DUKW's probably put more miles on their DUKW's then I do in 5 years. As far as my insurance and title is concerned they are 1942 GMC's nothing that identify s them as a DUKW. Also the tour DUKW's are a extreme maintenance vehicle going in and out of the water and being driven with loads higher then they were ever rated for every day of the week. Hopefully these commercial adventures do not effect our hobby and historic vehicles.
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NTSB is saying some kind or recommended repair was not done on this DUKW. Apparently it is a '45 GMC:
The NTSB had few details Sunday about the warning Ride the Ducks International issued. It wasn't clear what prompted the warning or how the potential failure was discovered, or whether it applied to all duck boats or only those that the company had refurbished, he said. It wasn't clear how many of the 100 duck boats in service nationally may have had the repair, he said.The warning included specific instructions for inspecting the area where the shaft could fail, as well as instructions for the repair, which involved welding collars around the axle shaft, Weener said.
What are they talking about? The GM banjo axle is more or less the same design as the deuce and 5 ton axle. Where would you "weld a collar?"
The NTSB had few details Sunday about the warning Ride the Ducks International issued. It wasn't clear what prompted the warning or how the potential failure was discovered, or whether it applied to all duck boats or only those that the company had refurbished, he said. It wasn't clear how many of the 100 duck boats in service nationally may have had the repair, he said.The warning included specific instructions for inspecting the area where the shaft could fail, as well as instructions for the repair, which involved welding collars around the axle shaft, Weener said.
What are they talking about? The GM banjo axle is more or less the same design as the deuce and 5 ton axle. Where would you "weld a collar?"
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More to the story. The DUKW is NOT a '45, it is a RTDI reproduction. From the RTDI website:
Ride The Ducks of Seattle is an independently owned and operated licensee. It purchased the vehicle involved in the accident from RTDI in January 2005. The terms of our agreement do not allow us to independently inspect or audit the equipment after delivery. However, we do continue to provide all licensees access to our knowledge base – this includes service bulletins, regular conference calls, and sharing of best practices. The Seattle team has been a part of this process.
The NTSB has released information about a 2013 service bulletin issued by RTDI to our company-owned locations and our licensees regarding a recommended front axle housing repair involving 57 Duck vehicles. This bulletin is typical of the ongoing communication we have with all operators of these vehicles, all of which are either owned by RTDI or one of our licensees. We had no reason to believe that Seattle had not complied with the bulletin. We can say that the operators of the other in-service vehicles covered by the bulletin in Stone Mountain Park, GA, Branson, MO, Newport, KY, and Philadelphia, PA had complied. This maintenance work involved inspection and reinforcement of the front axle housing assembly.
Ride The Ducks of Seattle is an independently owned and operated licensee. It purchased the vehicle involved in the accident from RTDI in January 2005. The terms of our agreement do not allow us to independently inspect or audit the equipment after delivery. However, we do continue to provide all licensees access to our knowledge base – this includes service bulletins, regular conference calls, and sharing of best practices. The Seattle team has been a part of this process.
The NTSB has released information about a 2013 service bulletin issued by RTDI to our company-owned locations and our licensees regarding a recommended front axle housing repair involving 57 Duck vehicles. This bulletin is typical of the ongoing communication we have with all operators of these vehicles, all of which are either owned by RTDI or one of our licensees. We had no reason to believe that Seattle had not complied with the bulletin. We can say that the operators of the other in-service vehicles covered by the bulletin in Stone Mountain Park, GA, Branson, MO, Newport, KY, and Philadelphia, PA had complied. This maintenance work involved inspection and reinforcement of the front axle housing assembly.
quickfarms
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There web site contains some contradictory information.
This is from the statement about the Seattle incident.
"While our vehicles contain limited elements of their military origins such as the original frame rails, the vehicle is fully refurbished, modernized and updated to meet and exceed DOT standards. This includes everything from engine, suspension, interior, and safety equipment similar to what is found in a modern bus or heavy duty truck."
The above statement would apply to any true commercial use of a former military vehicle.
Hondo76251
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Thats right! Corporations are people too! They have hopes and dreams... feelings and emotions... moral conscience and personal accountability...
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Most unfortunate. Prayers for the families of those who lost loved ones.
saddamsnightmare
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September 29th, 2015
Gents:
Respectfully, the GMC Banjo axle was no where near as heavily built as the Rockwell axles used in the M35A2 series. It was a fair design for 1940, but mechanically speaking, it is a poor design for 2015. In bearing and axle sizes the deuce is a true 2-1/2 to 5 ton truck, the GMC's of WWII are barely 2-1/2 ton trucks. Sure, they could be overloaded, but the military bone yards of Europe were full of them after the war.
If the WWII deuce was such a great vehicle, why was the Army working on replacements in the 1947 to 1952 period? Sure, the deuce we know as the M35A2 is essentially a very heavy medium truck for 1948, fully capable of five ton loads on pavement. However, I find it interesting that the Army dropped the requirement for an amphibious truck from the G742 and G744 series truck designs. Probably RTDI would do better to manufacture their next series of ducks from much heaver modern components, including the frames, as they then could design more redundant strength in areas that would benefit from it. Five ton axles would be the minimum to use as the reserve strength would be much greater in the knuckles, and axles themselves. Let's just hope they don't source them from China.
This accident has been most unfortunate, causing loss and grief to all involved, but we can benefit from the NTSB investigation, inasmuch as it proves an inherent weakness in the design, we will know that those components will need to be monitored more closely and perhaps replaced with better quality new parts. We will either benefit from the knowledge, or if we hide our heads in the sand, we will lose from the knowledge not being utilized to improve our machines.
As to the man who said his DUKW was listed as a 1942 or 43 GMC, he is probably not being truthful with the DMV, as an example, in Texas a DUKW needs both a vehicle registration and a boat registration, and that would point out that it is indeed a DUKW. Most other states would likely require the dual registration as the vehicle in question is a dual use machine.
Gents:
Respectfully, the GMC Banjo axle was no where near as heavily built as the Rockwell axles used in the M35A2 series. It was a fair design for 1940, but mechanically speaking, it is a poor design for 2015. In bearing and axle sizes the deuce is a true 2-1/2 to 5 ton truck, the GMC's of WWII are barely 2-1/2 ton trucks. Sure, they could be overloaded, but the military bone yards of Europe were full of them after the war.
If the WWII deuce was such a great vehicle, why was the Army working on replacements in the 1947 to 1952 period? Sure, the deuce we know as the M35A2 is essentially a very heavy medium truck for 1948, fully capable of five ton loads on pavement. However, I find it interesting that the Army dropped the requirement for an amphibious truck from the G742 and G744 series truck designs. Probably RTDI would do better to manufacture their next series of ducks from much heaver modern components, including the frames, as they then could design more redundant strength in areas that would benefit from it. Five ton axles would be the minimum to use as the reserve strength would be much greater in the knuckles, and axles themselves. Let's just hope they don't source them from China.
This accident has been most unfortunate, causing loss and grief to all involved, but we can benefit from the NTSB investigation, inasmuch as it proves an inherent weakness in the design, we will know that those components will need to be monitored more closely and perhaps replaced with better quality new parts. We will either benefit from the knowledge, or if we hide our heads in the sand, we will lose from the knowledge not being utilized to improve our machines.
As to the man who said his DUKW was listed as a 1942 or 43 GMC, he is probably not being truthful with the DMV, as an example, in Texas a DUKW needs both a vehicle registration and a boat registration, and that would point out that it is indeed a DUKW. Most other states would likely require the dual registration as the vehicle in question is a dual use machine.
RDUKW
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No offence but you obviously do not own a DUKW and you have no right to call me untruthful! Both of my DUKW's have been California Highway Patrol inspected along with registered with the California DMV as 1942 GMC's. At no point was I untruthful with the DMV or hid anything as they saw the vehicles and registered them that way.
If your going to make comments please have a clue what you are talking about!
Another Ahab
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Your comments here are productive, saddamsnightmare, and I want to thank you for that.
Maybe some kind of good WILL come out of this incident. Kind of like the HMS Titanic incident: NOW every ship has sufficient lifeboats.
But the tragedy of the unexpected, the families who sent their children overseas to visit a new country, and now those children forever gone. And the injured, and as "Chappy" pointed, the ripples of distress and pain. It all calls for as much prayer all around as investigation. I am saddened by the sadness, I guess is what I'm saying. Kind of a prayer here in the thread. Amen.
saddamsnightmare
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September 29th, 2015.
Dear RDUKW and to other Steel Soldiers members:
Please accept my apologies in your case in regards to your particular trucks. However, do let me point out in most other states then California, if the vehicle is a motor vehicle and a boat, it has to be registered both ways if it is to be used both ways. If you were operating it as a amphibious truck on the Ohio River in W.Va. (as an example), you would have to have both a truck and boat registration, and the State Police, the DNR and the U.S. Coast Guard would have the right to inspect its equipment and condition depending on whether it was on the road or in the river.
I suspect that while the design was useful in WWII, it does have some visibility and safety issues inherent in the basic design. The long bow does restrict forward visibility more then a conventional hood or fenders would, and that bow has proved itself an excellent battering ram.
The Russians thought enough of it (the DUKW) and the SEEP to copy them. In any case, if weaknesses are determined to exist in the design that require corrections, we would be advised as owners and users to make those corrections ASAP, to forestall the possibility of such an accident reoccurring again. We can not prevent it 100%, for any time any vehicle is operated there is a certain amount of unforeseen occurrences happening to derange the normal function of the machine, but we can reduce it to a small minimum. The Seattle operators did not make the changes, even though their machines were arguably profitable, but how much harder might it be for those of use who maintain them for hobby purposes.
The next generation DUKW used by RTDI could benefit from a larger axle, and perhaps the hull could or should be designed with some failure or crumple zones incorporated forward of a watertight collision bulkhead. It may also end up that they will be more limited as to the speeds they can operate at, and where they can be driven, as a commercial oversize or specialized vehicle. When you think about it, truck cranes are always preceded and followed by lead and chase vehicles, perhaps that would help along with the upgrades to the drive and steering mechanisms to make the commercial DUKW a safer machine for the rest of us using the highways. Just a thought.
Dear RDUKW and to other Steel Soldiers members:
Please accept my apologies in your case in regards to your particular trucks. However, do let me point out in most other states then California, if the vehicle is a motor vehicle and a boat, it has to be registered both ways if it is to be used both ways. If you were operating it as a amphibious truck on the Ohio River in W.Va. (as an example), you would have to have both a truck and boat registration, and the State Police, the DNR and the U.S. Coast Guard would have the right to inspect its equipment and condition depending on whether it was on the road or in the river.
I suspect that while the design was useful in WWII, it does have some visibility and safety issues inherent in the basic design. The long bow does restrict forward visibility more then a conventional hood or fenders would, and that bow has proved itself an excellent battering ram.
The Russians thought enough of it (the DUKW) and the SEEP to copy them. In any case, if weaknesses are determined to exist in the design that require corrections, we would be advised as owners and users to make those corrections ASAP, to forestall the possibility of such an accident reoccurring again. We can not prevent it 100%, for any time any vehicle is operated there is a certain amount of unforeseen occurrences happening to derange the normal function of the machine, but we can reduce it to a small minimum. The Seattle operators did not make the changes, even though their machines were arguably profitable, but how much harder might it be for those of use who maintain them for hobby purposes.
The next generation DUKW used by RTDI could benefit from a larger axle, and perhaps the hull could or should be designed with some failure or crumple zones incorporated forward of a watertight collision bulkhead. It may also end up that they will be more limited as to the speeds they can operate at, and where they can be driven, as a commercial oversize or specialized vehicle. When you think about it, truck cranes are always preceded and followed by lead and chase vehicles, perhaps that would help along with the upgrades to the drive and steering mechanisms to make the commercial DUKW a safer machine for the rest of us using the highways. Just a thought.
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One may just google this series, It will go right to it.
NTSB has done investigations on the truck as an amphibian in water but this is first on land.
HWY15MH011
NTSB has done investigations on the truck as an amphibian in water but this is first on land.
HWY15MH011
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1945 DUKW Seattle Aurora bridge 09242015
An update from NTSB 11032015
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HWY15MH011_preliminary.aspx
An update from NTSB 11032015
http://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Pages/HWY15MH011_preliminary.aspx