ECO Hubs Off Road on our M1078A1

[Ronmar]

It looks like the M1079's fully loaded are 53%/47%. As we start moving the habitat plan from 2D to 3D shooting to distribute the weight similar to an M1079 sounds like the plan. All I know for sure now is that with an empty bed we were front heavy, not balanced. Not good off road–

Thats one reason why I am not concerned about building my habitat out of steel i think i am still probably going to wind up a little nose heavy...

 

[Ronmar]

@Ronmar thank you for confirming the braking air release. That is what I thought I noticed between Ted and I driving: He tap, tap, tapped the brakes while I tried to modulate them. It was difficult, though with practice I think I can become much better at it.

Also, yes the Jeep in 4L is locked so that engine compression has a great affect on downhill speed. Engaging hill control adds computerized braking to control downhill speed further–

well if you were going to be doing more of this type downhill driving, it would not be all that difficult to put together a more precise hand brake control. A lever, a pneumatic cylinder and a relay valve with an air supply, connected to the front blue glad-hand. The lever and cylinder would form an air pump and whatever pressure it applies to the control port on the relay, the relay would use supply air to mimmic onto the service glad-hand port. The pump and lever could be hard mounted next to the seat, so perhaps easier to control, and the geometry of the lever to cylinder rod could give you a really long travel lever for more precise brake pressure application.

 

[aw113sgte]

well if you were going to be doing more of this type downhill driving, it would not be all that difficult to put together a more precise hand brake control. A lever, a pneumatic cylinder and a relay valve with an air supply, connected to the front blue glad-hand. The lever and cylinder would form an air pump and whatever pressure it applies to the control port on the relay, the relay would use supply air to mimmic onto the service glad-hand port. The pump and lever could be hard mounted next to the seat, so perhaps easier to control, and the geometry of the lever to cylinder rod could give you a really long travel lever for more precise brake pressure application.

Could maybe use the abs modulators for this?

 

[hike]

Could maybe use the abs modulators for this?

The ABS system activated while trying to double pedal up some ledges.

While on the trails I was thinking about our older Jeeps and how we used the emergency brake levers to help control descents.

Good ideas some one to contemplate. Perhaps @olly hondro

I am thinking in our use case we will not be traversing such technical paths once the habitat is in place. I did want to assess the capabilities and our M1078A1 is certainly more able than the Ford F550 we looked at while choosing our platform.

Perhaps throttle control, too. Even with the habitat it would be nice to tone down the throttle response. I haven't started to look at that, though as it is the pedal is more responsive (touchy) than I wish—

 

[Ronmar]

Could maybe use the abs modulators for this?

Well if moving ABS will interfere with individual wheel lockups and add pulse/applications that can actually make things worse. Quite a few topics i have read where people disable basic ABS for these type offroad operations. I have not offroaded much in an ABS equipped vehicle though...

What I am describing is simply a longer travel brake actuator that will allow finer control than your foot on the pedal while being josseled around in a bouncing cab

Even backing my frame into my shop to work on it, i find the brakes a little touchy for precise position control with the pedal/treadle valve config.

 

[Ronmar]

The ABS system activated while trying to double pedal up some ledges.

While on the trails I was thinking about our older Jeeps and how we used the emergency brake levers to help control descents.

Good ideas some one to contemplate. Perhaps @olly hondro

I am thinking in our use case we will not be traversing such technical paths once the habitat is in place. I did want to assess the capabilities and our M1078A1 is certainly more able than the Ford F550 we looked at while choosing our platform.

Perhaps throttle control, too. Even with the habitat it would be nice to tone down the throttle response. I haven't started to look at that, though as it is the pedal is more responsive (touchy) than I wish—

I wonder if your TPS sensor is linear? It could have small dead spots in the low end. The ECU may be programmable for response, dut will still rely on a properly working TPS...

 

[hike]

I wonder if your TPS sensor is linear? It could have small dead spots in the low end. The ECU may be programmable for response, dut will still rely on a properly working TPS...

Is that likely than the system seeing different tire spin speeds? We did have opportunies for that when ledge climbing. Since this was the first time we had off road on technical trails my technique was less than optimal—

 

[Ronmar]

Is that likely than the system seeing different tire spin speeds? We did have opportunies for that when ledge climbing. Since this was the first time we had off road on technical trails my technique was less than optimal—

Wheel spin/speed is only looked at by ABS and shouldnt effect throttle respons...

 

[hike]

Wheel spin/speed is only looked at by ABS and shouldnt effect throttle respons...

Duh. I was stuck on your ABS comment.

I found the Williams Controls WM-526 product PDF, though still looking for how to adjust the feed. I may just have to mess with it to self learn/find the best setting—

 

[Ronmar]

Duh. I was stuck on your ABS comment.

I found the Williams Controls WM-526 product PDF, though still looking for how to adjust the feed. I may just have to mess with it to self learn/find the best setting—

Yea i am not sure how the cat ECU uses or alarms on tps info. In general they typically accept any response within its recorded min and max signals. Sometimes they will record faults on eratic operation but tgat depends on how tgey are programmed and configured...

 

[Lostchain]

I found the Williams Controls WM-526 product PDF, though still looking for how to adjust the feed. I may just have to mess with it to self learn/find the best setting—

I asked my buddy who happens to be the principal engineer for Williams Controls (now Curtiss-Wright) if this can even be changed in the pedal or would it have to be done at the ECM:


“It would be in the ecm. In the pedal you'd have to make a nonlinear transfer function. The sensor is locked anyway so it can't be changed. It'd take a new sensor with a newer hall chip with multiple calibration points to make it. It wouldn't have more peak power it would just ramp up faster (or slower) than the linear version. Thing is the ecm could have a throttle ramp damping (electronic) anyway so it still wouldn't help in that case. Yep ECU is the right way.”

for what it’s worth…

 

[hike]

I asked my buddy who happens to be the principal engineer for Williams Controls (now Curtiss-Wright) if this can even be changed in the pedal or would it have to be done at the ECM:


“It would be in the ecm. In the pedal you'd have to make a nonlinear transfer function. The sensor is locked anyway so it can't be changed. It'd take a new sensor with a newer hall chip with multiple calibration points to make it. It wouldn't have more peak power it would just ramp up faster (or slower) than the linear version. Thing is the ecm could have a throttle ramp damping (electronic) anyway so it still wouldn't help in that case. Yep ECU is the right way.”

for what it’s worth…

Thank you. I appreciate it.

I was wondering if that might be the case. For our Jeeps you can purchase aftermarket throttle controls, that might be the way to go here, too—

 

[Ronmar]

Yep, ECU would be where this would be altered, but it still relies on the TPS sensor functioning properly…

 

[GeneralDisorder]

Aftermarket throttle controllers are "piggyback" devices that attempt to fool the ECM into believing the input has changed in some different way than reality. Be very careful with such things. Not only can they have unintended consequences, but the prosecution will crucify you in court if you are ever in an accident, insurance will run away as fast as they can, etc.

Honestly a terrible idea IMO. Don't screw with the inputs to the computer - reprogram the computer to deal with reality - don't send the computer fairy tales.

 

[hike]

Aftermarket throttle controllers are "piggyback" devices that attempt to fool the ECM into believing the input has changed in some different way than reality. Be very careful with such things. Not only can they have unintended consequences, but the prosecution will crucify you in court if you are ever in an accident, insurance will run away as fast as they can, etc.

Honestly a terrible idea IMO. Don't screw with the inputs to the computer - reprogram the computer to deal with reality - don't send the computer fairy tales.

Good suggestion. I have been looking at throttle controllers. Interestingly, all are advertised to 'punch' acceleration and reduce throttle lag. Of course, my goal is to reduce pedal sensitivity especially at the low end.

The Williams Controls WM-526 pedal in our truck has a linear (straight line) control voltage feed to the ECM. If we divide the pedal positions into 6 equally spaced (straight line) throttle positions: 0:0%, 1:20%, 2:40%, 3:60%, 4:80%, 5:100% on the Williams according to their product information sheet.



Each of the throttle controls I reviewed today have multiple presets changing the linear feed to a more aggressive curve making the pedal much sensitive to start: 0:0%, 1:25%, 2:50%, 3:75%, 4:90%, 5:100%; and maybe one Eco preset.



Apparently, most folks who buy these devices are looking for the opposite of what I am thinking: to have the pedal less responsive to start: 0:0%, 1:4%, 2:16%, 3:36%, 4:64%, 5:100%

With the CAT software can we change the throttle response in the ECM? If I send in my ECM to remap from 275hp to 330hp and turn on cruise control, can you also turn the throttle response to be less sensitive on the lower end of pedal input?

I think that may be more drivable on local streets with potholes and such, too. We have a lot of streets where my foot is bouncing on the pedal when I am going slow in a neighborhood, (20 - 35 mph). Perhaps better in snow as well?

 

[Ronmar]

So have you measured your pedal to see if it is delivering a linear output? Garbage in=garbage out...

 

[hike]

So have you measured your pedal to see if it is delivering a linear output? Garbage in=garbage out...

Not yet. The pedal feed runs up under the dash instrumentation panel, so I haven't pulled the connecting plug. My comment is based on the Williams Controls (Curtiss-Wright) publication downloaded from their website, (graph posted above). The control voltage to the ECM is clearly linear.

Perhaps not, though experiential testing on and off road shows the low end pedal is too sensitive and likely linear as the documentation suggests. Perhaps your M10xx is different. What pedal control do you have?

 

[Ronmar]

Not yet. The pedal feed runs up under the dash instrumentation panel, so I haven't pulled the connecting plug. My comment is based on the Williams Controls (Curtiss-Wright) publication downloaded from their website, (graph posted above). The control voltage to the ECM is clearly linear.

Perhaps not, though experiential testing on and off road shows the low end pedal is too sensitive and likely linear as the documentation suggests. Perhaps your M10xx is different. What pedal control do you have?

Mechanical cable to mechanical governor throttle responds great…

depending on how they generate or alter a reference voltage(5vin, 0-5v out) something like a shorted winding section in a variable resistor could cause part of the pedal to be VERY non-linear. so instead of 20%pedal = 20% voltage output ect, the first 10% of pedal travel may be jumping the output to 30%. How the ECU is reading TPS is common live data on most EFI systems, you can look at real time to see how your TPS is performing. I suspect cat et can read this sensor live also, but I am not familiar with it…

 

[Lostchain]

We have a lot of streets where my foot is bouncing on the pedal when I am going slow in a neighborhood

Maybe you could tighten up the throttle return spring to add some resistance?

 

[hike]

Mechanical cable to mechanical governor throttle responds great…

depending on how they generate or alter a reference voltage(5vin, 0-5v out) something like a shorted winding section in a variable resistor could cause part of the pedal to be VERY non-linear. so instead of 20%pedal = 20% voltage output ect, the first 10% of pedal travel may be jumping the output to 30%. How the ECU is reading TPS is common live data on most EFI systems, you can look at real time to see how your TPS is performing. I suspect cat et can read this sensor live also, but I am not familiar with it…

Mechanical cable to mechanical governor throttle responds great…

depending on how they generate or alter a reference voltage(5vin, 0-5v out) something like a shorted winding section in a variable resistor could cause part of the pedal to be VERY non-linear. so instead of 20%pedal = 20% voltage output ect, the first 10% of pedal travel may be jumping the output to 30%. How the ECU is reading TPS is common live data on most EFI systems, you can look at real time to see how your TPS is performing. I suspect cat et can read this sensor live also, but I am not familiar with it…

Here is the data we found using our Dearborn DPA III plus (thank you @GeneralDisorder I am grateful to have this equipment) while in neutral under no load. Essentially, linear until the last 20%.


I will say the lag time is significant in the Dearborn software in comparison to our Bluefire readouts on the iPad. Redoing our Bluefire 'dash' now to see rpm's along with pedal position which we allow us to view while driving as well.

We will try to collect that data to see if it matches–