EESS Issues

[tgejesse]

I've been dealing with the same issue many others here have,

My new to me M1123 failed to start when the weather got cold for the first time this year. It would crank and white smoke would come out... On some warmer days, I am able to start the truck and the white smoke goes away after the truck warms up, which makes me think it is just unburnt fuel.

My instinct was to replace the glow plugs, so that is what I did. They all were burned up.

On a more recent cold day, I tried to start the truck again and I was getting white smoke and the truck was fighting me to start.

I started to wonder if my EESS box (Nartron Yellow) was bad. I bought a multimeter and turns out there is a constant 24v being sent to the glow plugs.

I opened up the EESS box and everything looks to be in great condition, there isn't any visible damage / burns.

My first thought is to upgrade to the S3 box but I cant afford to burn through these boxes like they are candy.

Is it possible that my temp sensor is bad which is causing the box to send a constant 24v? If so, is there a way to test the temp sensor?

Any suggestions are welcome before I have to simply replace a box I'm not even sure is bad.

 

[springer1981]

I'm no expert on EESS boxes and have never taken one apart but I do have and electronics background and based on the picture it looks like the circuit board has some burnt area on it. I can't really tell due to the resolution of the picture but maybe you can. It may just be the etch behind something that makes it look that way?

 

[Action]

When you folks have trouble starting in cold weather......did your wait light function properly when it was warmer weather? The wait light will still come on for 7-10 seconds in the summer, if the engine is ambient temp. Meaning the problem could have been trouble shooted without freezing your butt of...

 

[tgejesse]

I'm no expert on EESS boxes and have never taken one apart but I do have and electronics background and based on the picture it looks like the circuit board has some burnt area on it. I can't really tell due to the resolution of the picture but maybe you can. It may just be the etch behind something that makes it look that way?

View attachment 854582

What you are seeing is a shadow and a fingerprint. Bad picture, sorry.

 

[tgejesse]

When you folks have trouble starting in cold weather......did your wait light function properly when it was warmer weather? The wait light will still come on for 7-10 seconds in the summer, if the engine is ambient temp. Meaning the problem could have been trouble shooted without freezing your butt of...

Yes. The wait light comes on for 7-10 seconds, even now. The light goes off, 24v to plugs continues.

 

[papakb]

Guys, Diesels like to run HOT and when they're cold they don't burn the fuel in the cylinders as efficiently. This and the Cold Start Circuit is already adding extra fuel to the engine because of the cold so hold off on jumping to conclusions about stuff being screwed up. It's an expensive road to go down unnecessarily. If the WAIT lamp is working right and the white smoke goes away after a couple minutes of run time your probably OK. The glow plugs are an easy check with a multimeter. As long as the read out around 5 ohms your good to go. Shorted or open plugs need to be replaced but just because they're black doesn't mean they're bad. Soot will build up in the pre-combustion chambers in a correctly running engine.

Now 24 volts to the plugs means either a relay in the early box is bad or one of the MOSFET devices in the later ones has pooped the bed and needs to be changed out. Both are repairable items if you want to invest a little time rather than a fistful of dollars and you have the skill set to do it.

 

[Mogman]

The bad news is you have probably burned through another set of glow plugs, Like P said it is probably the box and not the temp sensor

 

[tgejesse]

Now 24 volts to the plugs means either a relay in the early box is bad or one of the MOSFET devices in the later ones has pooped the bed and needs to be changed out. Both are repairable items if you want to invest a little time rather than a fistful of dollars and you have the skill set to do it.

Unfortunately electrical engineering and circuitry was something I never fully understood. My biggest fear with buying this truck was this box, and of course this happens. Can the MOSFETs be tested without removing them from the mobo?

I spoke to TOBASH on the phone for almost an hour earlier today and he has a very creative way to bypass the PCB/EESS.
I guess my options are:
* Upgrade to an S3 box and hope it doesnt blow again. 1000$
* Find a member here who knows what they are doing and pay them for a repair / bypass.
* Try a board repair and possibly burn my truck to the ground

 

[Action]

Unfortunately electrical engineering and circuitry was something I never fully understood. My biggest fear with buying this truck was this box, and of course this happens. Can the MOSFETs be tested without removing them from the mobo?

I spoke to TOBASH on the phone for almost an hour earlier today and he has a very creative way to bypass the PCB/EESS.
I guess my options are:
* Upgrade to an S3 box and hope it doesnt blow again. 1000$
* Find a member here who knows what they are doing and pay them for a repair / bypass.
* Try a board repair and possibly burn my truck to the ground

Computer repair shops can do the soldering of new components on a circuit board. I had them do stepper motors on a car dash, very cheap labor.

 

[tgejesse]

Computer repair shops can do the soldering of new components on a circuit board. I had them do stepper motors on a car dash, very cheap labor.

Yeah I’m confident I’d be able to do it, I just don’t see any components (mofset etc) that is visibly damaged. That’s what has me scratching my head.

 

[REF]

Wile you have the box open, take your ohm meter and check the large silver solenoid , the large post on one side and the large post opposite it.
With the box open on the bench there should be NO continuity across those posts. If there is continuity across those posts you found the problem .
when the solenoid closes it arcs inside as the circuit closes and in time will stick closed keeping the glow plugs energized and an easy fix. If the solenoid is open while sitting on the bench then you most likely have a problem with the electronic side of the box

 

[tgejesse]

Wile you have the box open, take your ohm meter and check the large silver solenoid , the large post on one side and the large post opposite it.
With the box open on the bench there should be NO continuity across those posts. If there is continuity across those posts you found the problem .
when the solenoid closes it arcs inside as the circuit closes and in time will stick closed keeping the glow plugs energized and an easy fix. If the solenoid is open while sitting on the bench then you most likely have a problem with the electronic side of the box

Great advice. I will try this tomorrow.
When I switch the truck to ‘run’ I hear a thud coming from under the dash that remains until I switch it back to off, where I hear a second thud.

 

[REF]

Yes the thud may be the plunger moving but if the contacts are arked closed the thud is misleading. I can't be the only one that has let go of the switch on my winch and it kept going sending me in a panic to unhook the battery or let go of the key on my jeep and the starter stayed engaged. anyway it's the same principle. sometimes a rap on the solenoid will knock it lose but it still needs to be replaced. if it stuck once it will stick again.

Now if the electronics are applying power to the small post on the solenoid telling it to close, well that's way beyond me

 

[TOBASH]

Unfortunately electrical engineering and circuitry was something I never fully understood. My biggest fear with buying this truck was this box, and of course this happens. Can the MOSFETs be tested without removing them from the mobo?

I spoke to TOBASH on the phone for almost an hour earlier today and he has a very creative way to bypass the PCB/EESS.
I guess my options are:
* Upgrade to an S3 box and hope it doesnt blow again. 1000$
* Find a member here who knows what they are doing and pay them for a repair / bypass.
* Try a board repair and possibly burn my truck to the ground

I enjoyed our conversation BUT I recall there was much more to it.

Not exactly what i recall we discussed Jesse. I reminded you that I bypassed my PCB so I’m no expert on glow plug activation. I stated that first you need to properly diagnose before you consider spending money. I advised you to read the troubleshooting areas in the technical manuals and I advised you to discuss with everyone on the bulletin board whether or not your protective control box made by Natron continues to power the glow plugs one or two minutes after you start the vehicle. I also advised you to look into the Engine block heat sensor that acts more or less like a choke.

It was a great conversation but I think you didn’t catch all of what I was trying to tell you.

 

[tgejesse]

I enjoyed our conversation BUT I recall there was much more to it.

Not exactly what i recall we discussed Jesse. I reminded you that I bypassed my PCB so I’m no expert on glow plug activation. I stated that first you need to properly diagnose before you consider spending money. I advised you to read the troubleshooting areas in the technical manuals and I advised you to discuss with everyone on the bulletin board whether or not your protective control box made by Natron continues to power the glow plugs one or two minutes after you start the vehicle. I also advised you to look into the Engine block heat sensor that acts more or less like a choke.

It was a great conversation but I think you didn’t catch all of what I was trying to tell you.

Yeah there was much more to our convo, just tried to get the hilights here.
My biggest takeaway from our conversation, my own research and other members here is that there is certainly a problem because of the constant 24v. After we got off the phone I reassembled my box and reinstalled it to test how long the glow plugs truly stay powered, and it was well over two minutes before I turned my truck off.
No easy sure fire solution right now.

 

[86humv]

If testing a box in the truck...make sure all glo plugs are dis connected so you won't blow them up if bad box.

 

[tgejesse]

If testing a box in the truck...make sure all glo plugs are dis connected so you won't blow them up if bad box.

Little late for that LOL

 

[Retiredwarhorses]

This topic gets beat to death twice a week here and daily on the FB forums…I’ve imparted my daily experience as a shop owner to no avail, folks have no problem finding the website and forums to post the problem, but oddly can’t find the 1 million other people who had the same issue
you don’t have to go far down the list of recent topics to see the same issue…

 

[tgejesse]

This topic gets beat to death twice a week here and daily on the FB forums…I’ve imparted my daily experience as a shop owner to no avail, folks have no problem finding the website and forums to post the problem, but oddly can’t find the 1 million other people who had the same issue
you don’t have to go far down the list of recent topics to see the same issue…

Its beat to death twice weekly because its a very real issue. Everyone experiencing this for the first time has to go down the same rabbit hole of PCB, EESS, S3, Narturon, KDS.... its not a very clear answer. Instead of confusing people who are not very technical when it comes to electronics, they should be pointed towards user friendly and well documented guidance.

I've done almost a full 24 hours of research on this issue and have read every thread I can find on this forum. I've spoken to experienced members on this topic like TOBASH on the phone. He has a great solution but has yet to come to market with it or created an instructional video on how to make it.

The most user friendly workaround I've found for this awful "smart" army solution was a simple relay and a new glow plug harness: Here

I think guidance to first timers with this issue should be:
1) Install grounding harness (regardless)
2) Look for shorts / open the box and see if there is any visible damage, if so see if it can be fixed... ie. replacing the mosfets.
3) Decide if you have $1k fun money to toss on a new S3 box and hope you don't one day fry the box again.
4) Create your own custom glow plug solution for less than $150 using a 24v 200amp relay some wires and a momentary switch.... and leave the "smart" box in the past.

Yes, I'm over simplifying it but... there should to be a sticky with the best knowledge surrounding this issue if it's a "twice weekly" issue.
There's a lot of information, but its all over the place and its not clear who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't.
So instead of the "use the search bar bro" method maybe senior members with all the "expertise" should band together to come up with a single sticky with the best information available for this issue. It would surly benefit the greater community and reduce the number of these threads.

 

[Action]

Its beat to death twice weekly because its a very real issue. Everyone experiencing this for the first time has to go down the same rabbit hole of PCB, EESS, S3, Narturon, KDS.... its not a very clear answer. Instead of confusing people who are not very technical when it comes to electronics, they should be pointed towards user friendly and well documented guidance.

I've done almost a full 24 hours of research on this issue and have read every thread I can find on this forum. I've spoken to experienced members on this topic like TOBASH on the phone. He has a great solution but has yet to come to market with it or created an instructional video on how to make it.

The most user friendly workaround I've found for this awful "smart" army solution was a simple relay and a new glow plug harness: Here

I think guidance to first timers with this issue should be:
1) Install grounding harness (regardless)
2) Look for shorts / open the box and see if there is any visible damage, if so see if it can be fixed... ie. replacing the mosfets.
3) Decide if you have $1k fun money to toss on a new S3 box and hope you don't one day fry the box again.
4) Create your own custom glow plug solution for less than $150 using a 24v 200amp relay some wires and a momentary switch.... and leave the "smart" box in the past.

Yes, I'm over simplifying it but... there should to be a sticky with the best knowledge surrounding this issue if it's a "twice weekly" issue.
There's a lot of information, but its all over the place and its not clear who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't.
So instead of the "use the search bar bro" method maybe senior members with all the "expertise" should band together to come up with a single sticky with the best information available for this issue. It would surly benefit the greater community and reduce the number of these threads.

Maybe i misunderstood what the guy in your linked video said. I got the impression that he removed the start wire from the back of starter switch and let it hang. Then put a new wire into the switch, leading to his glowplug relay. Now he can turn the plugs on with the start switch. BUT, how does he start the truck? I didnt hear him say to splice the 2 wires at the switch. The starter wire is just hanging under the dash.
And you cant splice those or it will crank before plugs are hot.