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EMP & The CUCV

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Desert Deuce

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I'm wondering if the CUCV's were in any way protected from EMP?? Isn't there a circuit board that controls the gow plugs? Would the military buy a vehicle that would be inoperable after a high altitude nuclear detonation? :cookoo:
 

BKinzey

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The newer 6.5 and Duramax are computer controlled so I would say they are not protected. I haven't seen any up close & personal but the pics I've seen for 6.5 HMMV & Duramax CUCV didn't have any noticable shielding.
 

ken

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Useing a screwdriver to jump the glow plug selinod and counting to 7 would get you around a burt controller. Any other coils might have a problem. Like the fuel shut off in the IP. And the alternators might be upset too.
I believe there was a myth busters show where the set a EMP off near a small ford sedan. The engine stalled and wouldn't restart. But power windows and starter motor still worked.
You could always keep spare parts you may need in a grounded farady cage and put them in a place where radio signals are hard to get.
But even if your vehicle still runs, Where are you going to get fuel?
 

JDToumanian

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But even if your vehicle still runs, Where are you going to get fuel?
Siphon it from the tanks of thousands of dead vehicles! :lol:

I have an old Ford pickup with the 6.9 diesel, which is very similar in many ways to the GM 6.2 & 6.5, the glow plug controller looks almost the same (externally at least)... Internally there's not much to it, it's just got some contacts and a piece of muscle wire to switch the plugs on and off, and a filament that is the timer... once it heats up and trips it's bi-metallic switch, it shuts the glow system off until the ignition is turned off and the system (and the engine) cools down and resets. Nothing electronic in there, it's all mechanical.

Regards,
Jon
 

ida34

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The controller on a cucv is does have a circuit board with electronics. The Relay for for the cucv is not a controller it is only a relay.
 

gimpyrobb

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I'm not sure, But I thought emp only affected working electronics when the pulse goes off. That would mean the myth busters would have to be operating the windows to see if it has any ill effect like the motor.
 

builder77

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No expert here, but I don't think EMP cares if the electronics is working or not. Wiring acts like receiver for the energy pulse. The more wiring the more energy absorbed and a bigger spike. A device that is on probably is more susceptible to the spike as it already has a load on it, but could still fry if off. Windows are old school electronics with no circuit board to fry. Just a motor, switch, and maybe a solenoid.

For 110V house stuff probably anything that is plugged in is toast as you have thousands of miles of electric company wiring to make a BIG spike.
 

ARMYMAN30YearsPlus

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All I know is that my duece and all my guns will still work and that is what will really matter in case of a Nuclear explosion that is big enough and close enough to kill your electronics. The shielding that we have on military equipment must be thoughouly tested and I am quite sure that the CUCV being an off the shelf solution to the phasing out of the M151 does not have any shielding for EMP

Remember to say a prayer for the deployed Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen, and Marines on point for freedom
 

wallew

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I saw that 'Myth Busters'. THEY LITERALLY DROVE THE CAR UNDERNEATH THE DEVICE THAT CREATED THE EMP.

Not the same thing as setting off an 'emp device' at an altitude of twenty plus miles above the earth. HUGE DIFFERENCE than sitting twenty feet away from the emp device.

There is nothing but speculation about what will actually happen. I have read that a high altitude emp weapon will not work, as it cannot put a large enough pulse over a large enough area to actually effect anything.

NOW, if we have multiple emp devices set off at the same time at a much lower altitude (1/2 mile above an area or less) then you MIGHT have some problems. But it's all basically speculation until someone BESIDES HOLLYWEIRD sets one off.

jim
 

McGuyver

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wallew said:
There is nothing but speculation about what will actually happen. I have read that a high altitude emp weapon will not work, as it cannot put a large enough pulse over a large enough area to actually effect anything.

NOW, if we have multiple emp devices set off at the same time at a much lower altitude (1/2 mile above an area or less) then you MIGHT have some problems. But it's all basically speculation until someone BESIDES HOLLYWEIRD sets one off.

jim
Hi Jim,

its a documented fact that the EMP from the early high altitude nuclear tests in the South Pacific during the fifties knocked out power systems as far away as Hawaii. You sound to be misinformed to some degree on your sources, however I will agree with you that there are still a lot of uncertainties as to what exactly will happen due to the lack of very much hard test data. We didn't develope a very good understanding of the phenomena before the LTBT put an end to high altitude tests in the `60's.

Please see the excellent article bellow for details:


http://www.fas.org/nuke/intro/nuke/emp.htm


Nuclear Weapon EMP Effects

A high-altitude nuclear detonation produces an immediate flux of gamma rays from the nuclear reactions within the device. These photons in turn produce high energy free electrons by Compton scattering at altitudes between (roughly) 20 and 40 km. These electrons are then trapped in the Earth’s magnetic field, giving rise to an oscillating electric current. This current is asymmetric in general and gives rise to a rapidly rising radiated electromagnetic field called an electromagnetic pulse (EMP). Because the electrons are trapped essentially simultaneously, a very large electromagnetic source radiates coherently.

The pulse can easily span continent-sized areas, and this radiation can affect systems on land, sea, and air. The first recorded EMP incident accompanied a high-altitude nuclear test over the South Pacific and resulted in power system failures as far away as Hawaii. A large device detonated at 400–500 km over Kansas would affect all of CONUS. The signal from such an event extends to the visual horizon as seen from the burst point.

The EMP produced by the Compton electrons typically lasts for about 1 microsecond, and this signal is called HEMP. In addition to the prompt EMP, scattered gammas and inelastic gammas produced by weapon neutrons produce an “intermediate time” signal from about 1 microsecond to 1 second. The energetic debris entering the ionosphere produces ionization and heating of the E-region. In turn, this causes the geomagnetic field to “heave,” producing a “late-time” magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) EMP generally called a heave signal.

Initially, the plasma from the weapon is slightly conducting; the geomagnetic field cannot penetrate this volume and is displaced as a result. This impulsive distortion of the geomagnetic field was observed worldwide in the case of the STARFISH test. To be sure, the size of the signal from this process is not large, but systems connected to long lines (e.g., power lines, telephone wires, and tracking wire antennas) are at risk because of the large size of the induced current. The additive effects of the MHD-EMP can cause damage to unprotected civilian and military systems that depend on or use long-line cables. Small, isolated, systems tend to be unaffected.

Military systems must survive all aspects of the EMP, from the rapid spike of the early time events to the longer duration heave signal. One of the principal problems in assuring such survival is the lack of test data from actual high-altitude nuclear explosions. Only a few such experiments were carried out before the LTBT took effect, and at that time the theoretical understanding of the phenomenon of HEMP was relatively poor. No high-altitude tests have been conducted by the United States since 1963. In addition to the more familiar high-yield tests mentioned above, three small devices were exploded in the Van Allen belts as part of Project Argus. That experiment was intended to explore the methods by which electrons were trapped and traveled along magnetic field lines.

The “acid test” of the response of modern military systems to EMP is their performance in simulators, particularly where a large number of components are involved. So many cables, pins, connectors, and devices are to be found in real hardware that computation of the progress of the EMP signal cannot be predicted, even conceptually, after the field enters a real system. System failures or upsets will depend upon the most intricate details of current paths and interior electrical connections, and one cannot analyze these beforehand. Threat-level field illumination from simulators combined with pulsed-current injection are used to evaluate the survivability of a real system against an HEMP threat.

The technology to build simulators with risetimes on the order of 10 ns is well known. This risetime is, however, longer than that of a real HEMP signal. Since 1986 the United States has used a new EMP standard which requires waveforms at threat levels having risetimes under a few nanoseconds. Threat-level simulators provide the best technique for establishing the hardness of systems against early-time HEMP. They are, however, limited to finite volumes (aircraft, tanks, communications nodes) and cannot encompass an extended system. For these systems current injection must be used.

HEMP can pose a serious threat to military systems when even a single high-altitude nuclear explosion occurs. In principle, even a new nuclear proliferator could execute such a strike. In practice, however, it seems unlikely that such a state would use one of its scarce warheads to inflict damage which must be considered secondary to the primary effects of blast, shock, and thermal pulse. Furthermore, a HEMP attack must use a relatively large warhead to be effective (perhaps on the order of one mega-ton), and new proliferators are unlikely to be able to construct such a device, much less make it small enough to be lofted to high altitude by a ballistic missile or space launcher. Finally, in a tactical situation such as was encountered in the Gulf War, an attack by Iraq against Coalition forces would have also been an attack by Iraq against its own communications, radar, missile, and power systems. EMP cannot be confined to only one “side” of the burst.

Source Region Electro-magnetic Pulse [SREMP] is produced by low-altitude nuclear bursts. An effective net vertical electron current is formed by the asymmetric deposition of electrons in the atmosphere and the ground, and the formation and decay of this current emits a pulse of electromagnetic radiation in directions perpendicular to the current. The asymmetry from a low-altitude explosion occurs because some electrons emitted downward are trapped in the upper millimeter of the Earth’s surface while others, moving upward and outward, can travel long distances in the atmosphere, producing ionization and charge separation. A weaker asymmetry can exist for higher altitude explosions due to the density gradient of the atmosphere.

Within the source region, peak electric fields greater than 10 5 V/m and peak magnetic fields greater than 4,000 A/m can exist. These are much larger than those from HEMP and pose a considerable threat to military or civilian systems in the affected region. The ground is also a conductor of electricity and provides a return path for electrons at the outer part of the deposition region toward the burst point. Positive ions, which travel shorter distances than electrons and at lower velocities, remain behind and recombine with the electrons returning through the ground. Thus, strong magnetic fields are produced in the region of ground zero. When the nuclear detonation occurs near to the ground, the SREMP target may not be located in the electromagnetic far field but may instead lie within the electro-magnetic induction region. In this regime the electric and magnetic fields of the radiation are no longer perpendicular to one another, and many of the analytic tools with which we understand EM coupling in the simple plane-wave case no longer apply. The radiated EM field falls off rapidly with increasing distance from the deposition region (near to the currents the EMP does not appear to come from a point source).

As a result, the region where the greatest damage can be produced is from about 3 to 8 km from ground zero. In this same region structures housing electrical equipment are also likely to be severely damaged by blast and shock. According to the third edition of The Effects of Nuclear Weapons, by S. Glasstone and P. Dolan, “the threat to electrical and electronic systems from a surface-burst EMP may extend as far as the distance at which the peak overpressure from a 1-megaton burst is 2 pounds per square inch.”

One of the unique features of SREMP is the high late-time voltage which can be produced on long lines in the first 0.1 second. This stress can produce large late-time currents on the exterior shields of systems, and shielding against the stress is very difficult. Components sensitive to magnetic fields may have to be specially hardened. SREMP effects are uniquely nuclear weapons effects.

During the Cold War, SREMP was conceived primarily as a threat to the electronic and electrical systems within hardened targets such as missile launch facilities. Clearly, SREMP effects are only important if the targeted systems are expected to survive the primary damage-causing mechanisms of blast, shock, and thermal pulse. Because SREMP is uniquely associated with nuclear strikes, technology associated with SREMP generation has no commercial applications. However, technologies associated with SREMP measurement and mitigation are commercially interesting for lightning protection and electromagnetic compatibility applications. Basic physics models of SREMP generation and coupling to generic systems, as well as numerical calculation, use unclassified and generic weapon and target parameters. However, codes and coupling models which reveal the response and vulnerability of current or future military systems are militarily critical.
 

ARMYMAN30YearsPlus

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EMP's will not detonate small arms ammunition or the weapons they are fired from. If a nuclear war is started I believe you should have plenty of both to help preserve the Union and protect your self, loved ones, and property. I am sure that we would get most of our Miltary Vehicles running again if we have the fuel and shops left to work on them. I hope and pray we never come to this but with folks like we see in Iran and North Korea I am not sticking my head in the sand either.
 

maddawg308

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EMP Would be the last thing I was worried about if I was sitting in a CUCV near a nuclear detonation. Just my 2 cents.
 

wallew

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McG,
Actually, from the article you posted:

Military systems must survive all aspects of the EMP, from the rapid spike of the early time events to the longer duration heave signal. One of the principal problems in assuring such survival is the lack of test data from actual high-altitude nuclear explosions...

So many cables, pins, connectors, and devices are to be found in real hardware that computation of the progress of the EMP signal cannot be predicted, even conceptually, after the field enters a real system. System failures or upsets will depend upon the most intricate details of current paths and interior electrical connections, and one cannot analyze these beforehand.


EVEN THIS ARTICLE says the same thing I said. NO ONE KNOWS empircally what will happen. WHY? Because NO ONE HAS DONE THIS YET.

My point has always been prepare (the best you can) for the worst and hope for the best. But NO ONE REALLY KNOWS what will happen. Especially regarding a device detonated 200+ MILES above the earth. NO ONE. I have friends in the military. In areas I don't even know what it is they do. But we've had this conversation a couple of times and they are the ones that jumped all over me the first time I spouted exactly what this article is discussing. And they said the same thing. That is "WE DON'T REALLY KNOW".

We can speculate, postulate and intimate. BUT WE JUST DON'T KNOW. That's all I said. Your article supports that statement. Sorry.

best regards,
jim
 

McGuyver

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Hi Jim,

yes I pointed that out in my original reply, that there are a lot of uncertainties due to the lack of test data and the poor theoretical understanding of the phenomena at the time that the few high altitude tests were performed. I wasn't disagreeing with you on that point. The point I took issue with was where you said"

"There is nothing but speculation about what will actually happen. I have read that a high altitude emp weapon will not work, as it cannot put a large enough pulse over a large enough area to actually effect anything. "

We may not be able to predict with a high degree of certainty exactly what will happen under a given set of conditions, but this doesn't justify making the sweeping claim that "nothing may happen at all" and "nothing but speculation" since we know for a fact historically from the tests in the South Pacific that a large EMP is created with effects seen over a very large area, as noted in this article, and in The Effects of Nuclear Weapons 3rd edition, (compiled and edited by Samual Glasstone & Phillip J. Dolan and published by the US DOD and US DOE.)

My point is that we know that the detonation of nuclear devices at high altitudes will have an EMP effect potentially spanning continent sized areas (provided it is detonated at a high enough altitude.) We also have a general understanding of what to expect and the types of effects created. It is the full extent of those effects and their full impact on electronics, communications and power distribution networks that are not know.
 

Adamlee

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EMP and vehicles

They went through this whole imaginary scenario on the new CBS series Jericho....only the older cars, with simple electronics, or diesels, would function...

I admit that I'm watching it; every episode I allow my wife to remind me how bad the show sucks.... :roll:

But it is very ironic, that a series about nuclear armageddon-type disaster is being put out today, when it would've fit in much better in 1984.....(like The Day After, etc)
 

ken

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Anybody know of anything published by DOD on this? They had to have testing program? They knew this would be problem if we got into it with the ussr. From what i rember war with them was the #1 worry. Mabye that's why my MV's have more ground straps that it could ever need. They only have a 60 amp alternator, but have 6 2inch wide gound straps. I've heard that grounding the vehicle when not in use will slove a lot of this. Anybody? I've also read that the pulse is looking for ground? And if so would all the cell towers we have now help the pulse ground out?
 

wallew

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DD,
TRUST ME when I say I UNDERSTAND EMP.

What happens when the USS ENTERPRISE comes into dry dock with all their high energy radar and other types of electronic survellance equipment putting it out? Can't tell you how many or I'd have to, you know...

You shutdown ALL the computers. You shut down all the power to the building. You disconnect ALL wiring TO said computers. Main frames and desktops. And you pray to whatever god will listen that this NOT destroy the work you've worked so hard to put into place. Especially when the 'Big E' is less than two hundred yards from the data center. And EMP IS JUST what happens when high energy is put into a very short throw that can 'hook onto' any stray wires you missed. You do double back ups after running everyone off the systems four hours earlier than normal and have them picked up and put in the vault of the off site storage company you hired. So even IF your computers disks are fried, at least your company can pick up where it left off.

This happened back in December 1985. The 'Big E' ran across a sand bar south of San Diego (wouldn't want to have been the navigator and several other positions in charge of keeping her on an even keel when THAT happened). Thirty plus foot long hole below the water line. Took them several days to dredge the Bay so that the Enterprise could cross from Alameda to San Francisco to our dry dock. After they off loaded everything that they could so it would be light enough to make it across the Bay.

NOW, while you wish to use our congress critters report as something to point at, I believe less and less of what they say. This report is more of a CYA than true science. And I will read it when I get a chance, but I'll bet they use a lot of 'maybes, coulds, and ifs' just like ALL reports on this particular subject do. Then CONGRESS decides our fate from a report that has been written on no empirical evidence? That's even scarier than what happened on 9/11.

Like I said, NO ONE HAS DONE THIS YET. When they do, we will ALL learn all sorts of interesting stuff. And all the books on EMP will have to be rewritten. If you have information regarding EMP devices that HAVE been set off, lay a quote on us, with the proper footnotes of course.

No offense. But like I said, NO ONE REALLY KNOWS. We can all speculate, postulate, discuss, dream, plan, etc. just like all those people who wrote that report for congress. But again, no one really knows. And yeah, top secret clearance, plus a lot of other things. FIFTEEN PLUS YEARS in computers - almost exclusively computer operations (all the hardware). Disaster recovery, data center security, studied all forms of disruption, including but not limited to earthquakes, fires, floods, snow storms, electrical storms and yes, NBC to include the effects of EMP. SO TRUST ME WHEN I SAY I DO UNDERSTAND EMP.

BETTER THAN ANY THREE PEOPLE YOU WILL MEET.

SORRY DD. But this was MY JOB. TWENTY PLUS YEARS AGO. I HAD TO BE THE AUTHORITY. WHEN YOU ARE THE GUY in your company everybody turns to when things go to hell in a hand basket, you better be ready. I LITERALLY WROTE THE DISASTER RECOVERY BOOK for two large national companies (Ross Stores and Bookstop [now Barnes & Noble]) and several smaller ones over the fifteen plus years I was in ops. I think I still have a copy somewhere...

jim
 
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