F-35, first catapult launch

[Bighurt]

You guys scream about the F-22 and others but keep in mind the F-22 prototype was built in the mid 80's.

It takes years to develop an aircraft. The AF isn't what it was years ago. They don't have the man-power to trouble shot an aircraft just to get a jet jockey some fly time. Which is why these new planes have the self diagnostic euipment. Now the crew chief can land a plane, safe the jet download the report and meet the pilot in debriefing with answers and solutions, meanwhile the maintenance crew has already started fixing the plane.

B-52 can't do that, pilot says somethings wrong and it could mean tearing apart a significant portion of the jet to figure out the issue. Or even worse how about a jet that can only fly x hours before it runs out of oil. Some planes were never designed to be refueled, now the limitation is the pilot not the plane.

Look at the flight crew of a B36 22, flight crew of a B52 5, flight crew of a B-2 2, that doesn't count the people to launch the jet, fix the jet or support the jet. The AF is constantly striving to do with more with less, at the expense of the budget.

They constantly strive to improve things but the left hand and right hand don't talk. Paper-less air force, but change reporting practices to require printing workorders and documenting in process inspections. Services complain about chow hall use, yet they don't improve the food. Maintenance complains about gym hours but no one attends. I'm sure these issues span more than the AF.

This thread is drastically off track, but keep in mind if we don't strive to improve and don't pass on what we've learned we are doomed to become a target. Just look at the special weapons field...

 

[Goose2448]

Three words.......Awe some.

That sir, is Two Words.

Trying to stay off the political rant, the F-35 is going to cost 300 million a plane, I think I heard, don't quote me on that one. The F-22, 228 million a plane. The F-15, 28 million a plane.

I know a General that flew F15E's for 20 years, he was the top rated fighter pilot in the world a few years ago. Right before he retired last fall, he had a chance to fly a simulated combat mission against the F-22. He said he would never want to fly against it. Its to agile, and can out turn the F-15 with its thrust vectoring.

That being said, what is wrong with upgrading the planes we have now? Maybe running some more out? The F-15 has never been shot down in a sortie, and holds the fastest climb records in the world. No other fighter plane can out run it. It has been called the best fighter of all time. So why replace it? If it aint broke dont fix it. One reason the B-52s are still flying. Some of the current pilots of B-52's, their dads flew them.

 

[Bighurt]

Some of the current pilots of B-52's, their dads flew them.

There is one pilot that is third generation. Stationed here at Minot.

 

[SMOKEWAGON66]

You guys scream about the F-22 and others but keep in mind the F-22 prototype was built in the mid 80's.

It takes years to develop an aircraft.

Im not screaming about the F-22 in any aspect other then its a capable, viable aircraft that is already in service-compared to the F-35 that is in testing phase. The only beef i have with the F-35 is the HUGE waste of money the program is. Im not saying the F-22 didnt cost an astronomical amount but at least i know that the 22 program didnt waste any money in its testing phase before being brought to service.

The Lightning II project was supposed to cost like what? 20 mil a plane? Which LMAero has way surpassed...and also it was way past its due date....now that there are 7 on this base being flown, and they have double everything over there. They have an OT side of the house AND an FLTS side of the house. They are not allowed to co-mingle with each other, share tools or hazmat, or share parts. SO to solve that weird little rule, they have 2 Toolroms, 2 Hazmat pharmacy's, and 2 warehouses....FOR 7 PLANES! that reside in the same workspace. Smells like FW&A to me...but when asked about it, they say thats how the contract from LMAero was written and approved by the Govt....

 

[zout]

WM - I think the plane cost as much as Obama's last vacation - and I know I could not afford that either.
When will Americans wake UP

 

[Nonotagain]

That sir, is Two Words.

Trying to stay off the political rant, the F-35 is going to cost 300 million a plane, I think I heard, don't quote me on that one. The F-22, 228 million a plane. The F-15, 28 million a plane.

I know a General that flew F15E's for 20 years, he was the top rated fighter pilot in the world a few years ago. Right before he retired last fall, he had a chance to fly a simulated combat mission against the F-22. He said he would never want to fly against it. Its to agile, and can out turn the F-15 with its thrust vectoring.

That being said, what is wrong with upgrading the planes we have now? Maybe running some more out? The F-15 has never been shot down in a sortie, and holds the fastest climb records in the world. No other fighter plane can out run it. It has been called the best fighter of all time. So why replace it? If it aint broke dont fix it. One reason the B-52s are still flying.

Like I said earlier, I've worked in this arena for a lot of years. My old manager is/was the LM program manager for the F-22.

The problem with refurbishment of older fighter jets is that the airframes were only designed for XXXX hours which the planes have exceeded. There are major structural issues with the F-15. The cost of replacement parts and the work involved would require the entire airframe to be stripped to the boxes and be rebuilt.

To the best of my knowledge, the original jigs used for the build don't exist any longer. The engines are very outdated. The radar systems are obsolete. As mentioned, performing diagnostics on trouble reports is very time consuming.

The F-14 required hundreds of hours of maintenance for each hour of flight. The F-15 is very close to the same times.

I'm going to stay from the politics, but the best aircraft system doesn't always win out. As long as Congress can be purchased by placing jobs in either the home district or in all 50 states, the military industrial complex will exist as it is today, reduced in size, but still exist.

Once these jobs go away from a so called "Peace Dividend", we'll be a third world country. Defense jobs are about all that's left of the US manufacturing base that can't be outsourced to a foreign country.

 

[trukhead]

Great Thread!!!!!!

The plane and launch is fantastic but the discussion is the best!!!!!!

I like everything said about mortgaging their future so I won't rehash that.
Let's not forget the last 30 or so years of shifting or Mfg. base away to other continents by virtue of corporate-whore politicians, (do anything for their re-election campaign funds) to favor corporations to increase profit margins from worker efficiency increases as well as stagnant and diminishing pay raises that don't keep up to inflation. Start with busting unions to nafta, cafta, and now the crappy korea, and south American trade deal proposals.
Germany has a trade surplus with China and the typical German mfg. worker pay is very good.
Can't blame President Obama for debt, He put on books the expense of 2 wars and more corporate tax cuts for corporations and upper 1/2 % that Geo. W called supplemental spending that didn't go on books. Bush racked up more debt than all previous presidents combined.
Gubermint ain't there to make money, it's there to facilitate a civil society that we can all edumacate the youngins in, put out the neighbors out house fire, have nice roads to drive on, have a mail service, have cops on patrol provide a court system of laws so we all have a frame work to live in, inspect food so we don't eat and use medicine contaminated with chinese melamine.......... and the list goes on.
Before we talk of tax cuts let's remember that taxes for corps. and super rich are at the lowest point they have ever had and the jobs are still disappearing.
All them richy riches benefit from having a civil society to operate in so they should pay their share. In WI, Wally world pay it's worker so low, the workers qualify and are the biggest single group of users of badger care (socialist goobermint health care). And they get combine reporting on their profits and real estate so they don't pay their share of taxes.
Vote them all out and vote in some Americans!

 

[trukhead]

And Here I go again...

Just a parting thought. All that trade with Chine, we created 300 million chinese millionaires.
Our politicians did create a whole bunch of jobs over the last 20 years, FOR THE CHINESE!
All that chinese military and space program build up is funded with the money they made form selling us junk we use to make here.

 

[big block 88]

Your childrens future just got catapaulted into the air.

Now you know why we are 15 trillon dollars in debt.

How much a pop are we paying for these..........to the "lowest bidder"?

The last time I looked we had the best fighter planes in the world.

Some corporate lobbiest (prob retired mlitary) convinced enough politicians that the pork would flow to their districts and got the program sold to the military.

Dwight Eisenhower said "beware the military industrial complex".

When we can afford it I am all for new whiz bang weapons systems, our troops deserve the best......but this country is broke and we don't need to borrow more money to keep gooberment contractors in business.

If you want to see some of the gooberment ratholes we are throwing money down go to A-Z Index of U.S. Government Departments and Agencies (A): USA.gov.

I was pissed off before I got through the "A's".

Many of these agencies were stated for a good reason (long gone) and found ways to justify their existance. Once a government agency is created it it almost impossible to get rid of it...no matter how useless or redundant it is.

It is not the governments place to provide jobs to citizens.

My rant for the day.

With all due respect sir, I couldn't disagree more... National secerity is first and foremost the F-16 and F-18 have dominated for years and continue to do so, but we need to plan for what the other countries could be building.

We aren't the most popular country in the world we need to maintain our military dominance.

Our country is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD shape but I would much prefer to see my tax money being used to keep me safe then to pay for a bunch of young men (my age) to stand in line and make not much less than I do a week...

 

[clinto]

With all due respect sir, I couldn't disagree more... National secerity is first and foremost the F-16 and F-18 have dominated for years and continue to do so, but we need to plan for what the other countries could be building.

We aren't the most popular country in the world we need to maintain our military dominance.

Our country is BAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAD shape but I would much prefer to see my tax money being used to keep me safe then to pay for a bunch of young men (my age) to stand in line and make not much less than I do a week...

BS.....................

Nobody is going to start a shooting war with us................ The ENTIRE world learned it's lesson in Desert Storm..... we will tear your shi..... stuff up in about a week.

The future of American (Western in general) military action will be kinetic, asymmetrical warfare... police actions, etc. You can do more with 300 troops and a couple cargo trucks than a fleet of F-35's.

You will never see 2 major state players go at it again, at least not when one of the states is us.

I don't deny that we need to have a military that outshines everyone elses, for a lot of reasons (the point you made about our popularity is quite valid) but we spend as much as the next 20 top spenders COMBINED.

Think about that for a minute. Out of the top 20 spenders, we're #1. #'s 2 through 20 combined don't spend as much as us.

The 2009 U.S. military budget accounts for approximately 40% of global arms spending


There is nothing that we need that a refurbed F-14D or an F-15E can't do.

Ok, fine, maybe the Russians or the Chinese would have a fighter that's .03% "better" (turns faster, etc.).

They aren't going to enter into some epic global war with us.

Look these charts I have handily provided. Look at the chart depicting US defense budgets. We are now spending twice as much per year as we did during the height of the Vietnam war.

Yes, that chart is indexed for inflation.

You know at one point we had half a million people in Vietnam? The tempo of operations in Vietnam far outstretched both Iraq & Afghanistan operations combined and yet we spent half of what we are now?


I have no problem with a big DOD budget but the current spending is just out of hand.

And frivolous (yes, frivolous) things like the F-35 are a big part of it.

 

[NEIOWA]

BS.....................

Nobody is going to start a shooting war with us................ The ENTIRE world learned it's lesson in Desert Storm..... we will tear your shi..... stuff up in about a week.

The future of American (Western in general) military action will be kinetic, asymmetrical warfare... police actions, etc. You can do more with 300 troops and a couple cargo trucks than a fleet of F-35's.

You will never see 2 major state players go at it again, at least not when one of the states is us.

....

Really????? You better at the "Carnac the Magnificent" routine than the many generations before you? Ever do any reading of history? You see what nonsense that "never again/war would be to terrible" is.

We are unprepared today to fight a "real" war. We shot that wad in Desert Storm and used that last bit up 10yrs ago in the drive to Bagdad. The force is now fully trained in fighting a "crap/BS" battle. O4 and under have not trainied at BDE level in a real combined arms battle. You think our new little friends in the Chicom and Russian Armies have done the same? It's still a dangerous world and will be as long as humans walk on it. Being prepared is a technique. Hoping for the best is not.

Constitutional (including DOD) spending is NOT the problem with our Federal budget. The problem is ExtraConstitutional spending. If you want to cut DOD spending stick with BS like Breast Cancer Research, EPA Cleanups, meeting emissions requrements etc.

 

[USAFSS-ColdWarrior]

Here's a fresh news release - PHOTOS - of the F-35:

Stunning F-35 Shots at Flightstory.net - Aviation Blog, News & Stories​

 

[Jump Start]

Thanks for the pictures looks like a GREAT jet. What is the lifted up piece behind the cockpit?

 

[velociT]

Agreed Wreckerman. They can start to solve this financial crisis by selling me an F-35.

 

[wjruth]

Thanks for the pictures looks like a GREAT jet. What is the lifted up piece behind the cockpit?

Looks to be the flaps for the harrier function. Rear nozzle is pointed downward as the plane takes off.

 

[Nonotagain]

Thanks for the pictures looks like a GREAT jet. What is the lifted up piece behind the cockpit?

That would be the cold air intake used for the vertical launching operation.
If you look at the intakes on both sides of the fuselage, they're closed off. The engines can't ingest hot air or they only make 40% or so of rated thrust.

On a side note, General Electric/ Rolls Royce pulled the plug on self funding the competing engine. Now Pratt&Whitney is the sole engine source.