FLU419 SEE HMMH HME Owners group

[BigBison]

I'm assuming the new iPhone 7 Plus has LiFePO4 battery chemistry of some sort...

https://www.theguardian.com/technol...looking-into-video-of-exploding-iphone-7-plus

...because that phone doesn't explode, but it does go *poof*! The standard iPhone 7 catches fire, like any other Li-ion chemistry to date.

 

[BigBison]

I keep checking this website, but have yet to purchase anything because it's close-but-no-cigar on what I'm after:

http://www.goldmine-elec-products.com/prodinfo.asp?number=G20729

Like, I need a 24VDC on-delay with a 1 to 8-12hr range, that one's 120VAC. For plugging in a truck at the end of the day, and telling it how many hours to wait before turning on until unplugged, it's cheaper than a timer (no specs are available for most of their parts, hard to say how cold it can handle). A contactor relay (solenoid, whatevs) would be needed because it only handles half the amperage a 750W block heater needs. You'll also want a switch, about a $25 project if you can get a quality on-delay for $16.

My Dodge has always had an off-delay for the motor, aka "turbo saver," but that's not needed in winter. I'm still in the habit of leaving my truck running for all sorts of errands, by just telling it not to shut off for up to a couple hours, it won't be going anywhere without the keys in it. Recent state legislation outlawed unattended idling, so it's time to get in the habit of setting the hydronic unit to wake up after a while. I keep forgetting to mention that's one of the reasons I'm putting one on the Dodge, code-enforcement types love writing those tickets!

 

[The FLU farm]

My Dodge has always had an off-delay for the motor, aka "turbo saver," but that's not needed in winter. I'm still in the habit of leaving my truck running for all sorts of errands, by just telling it not to shut off for up to a couple hours, it won't be going anywhere without the keys in it. Recent state legislation outlawed unattended idling, so it's time to get in the habit of setting the hydronic unit to wake up after a while. I keep forgetting to mention that's one of the reasons I'm putting one on the Dodge, code-enforcement types love writing those tickets!

And here I thought that it wasn't good for diesels to idle. At least on the larger ones the rings aren't even made to seal well at idle, putting a fair amount of fuel in the oil. Maybe that's not the case with the little Cummins or OM352s.
Either way, I avoid idling any engine whenever possible.

 

[BigBison]

I'll eventually get around to fixing the heater in my SEE. I'm delving into the wiring diagrams for both the SEE and the Dodge to find where to wire a spoof "key on" signal when the Webastos are running. By leaving the heat controls set where I'd like and the fan on low when I shut down the truck, the coolant heater will pre-heat the cab and defrost the windows when it's running. You can't do this on newer trucks unless you can tap into a digital-multiplexed CAN bus and manipulate the computerized climate-control system, good luck with that! I'll need a small relay for the Dodge because the 12/24V thing, but on the SEE it's a matter of running one wire to the right relay.

 

[BigBison]

And here I thought that it wasn't good for diesels to idle. At least on the larger ones the rings aren't even made to seal well at idle, putting a fair amount of fuel in the oil. Maybe that's not the case with the little Cummins or OM352s.

You're right, prolonged idling isn't the best thing to do, but everyone does it in winter hereabouts because it's less damaging than more cold-starts over time, goes the thinking, and always change your oil when the snowpack breaks. I only ever leave diesels idling, they don't have pumping losses like gasoline engines so they just aren't burning much fuel. Yes, there will be more blow-by, but the 4" 304 stainless Banks Power exhaust for my Dodge, in addition to getting ceramic-coated at Swain (along with the new Steed Speed billet exhaust mani, and the ATS Aurora 3000 turbo, I found a great product to strip the existing powder-coat off those with no fuss -- the hidden exhaust bits get titanium heat-wrap 'cuz ceramic thermal coating ain't cheap), the downpipe has a hole I drilled in it for a slash-cut tube:

http://vibrantperformance.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=1527_1533_1340

Crankcase (not cylinder-head) gases are pulled through a catch-can under vacuum from the slash-cut tube. Some folks set up their catch-cans with a return line to the oil pan, fouling their oil with what I separate out and occasionally dispose of with used motor oil (if I'm not blowing it out my exhaust pipe, but I'm so eco compared to the coal-rollin' crowd). Or put a little filtered vent on their catch-can, venting those gases... right into the inside air intake basically. Lots of ways to get this wrong! My way applies massive ring-sealing vacuum under power, more efficiency = more power & less fuel consumption, making up for having removed the EGR, particulate filter, etc. But, I keep the PCV system intact.

The reason for a turbo saver is to cool down the turbocharger, like if you've climbed a long hill to get back to your place that turbo's gonna be red-hot, so if you shut it right down the oil will coke up on the turbo bearings. Idling for several minutes avoids this problem. In winter the heat dissipates quickly, but I'll also be "bagging" my new turbo, and idling it for at least a coupla minutes before shutdown because I've done two different things to make it retain heat. The hotter you can keep your exhaust gases at the tailpipe, the less backpressure the motor or turbo encounters. Driving through wet/wintry conditions with a bare-metal exhaust cools the gases, slowing them down, increasing backpressure and robbing efficiency. I'm not worried about any of this on the FLUs because those are short exhaust stacks, and of course no turbocharger on the OM352.

I'll eventually go with slash-cut tubes and catch-cans on my FLUs.

 

[Another Ahab]

Yes, there will be more blow-by, but the 4" 304 stainless Banks Power exhaust for my Dodge, in addition to getting ceramic-coated at Swain (along with the new Steed Speed billet exhaust mani, and the ATS Aurora 3000 turbo, I found a great product to strip the existing powder-coat off those with no fuss -- the hidden exhaust bits get titanium heat-wrap 'cuz ceramic thermal coating ain't cheap), the downpipe has a hole I drilled in it for a slash-cut tube:

Are you talking chemically, and without any physical kind of abrasion or impact?!

Any product that can strip powder-coating off like that must be some kind of "hot".

How does the stuff work?

 

[The FLU farm]

Any product that can strip powder-coating off like that must be some kind of "hot".

N-Terpinal makes a solution that removes powder coating, and if it's anything like its rust removers etc. you can almost drink it.
Never tried the powder coat version, but the rust removers work great.

 

[Another Ahab]

Are you talking chemically, and without any physical kind of abrasion or impact?!

Any product that can strip powder-coating off like that must be some kind of "hot".

How does the stuff work?

N-Terpinal makes a solution that removes powder coating, and if it's anything like its rust removers etc. you can almost drink it.

Never tried the powder coat version, but the rust removers work great.

Amazing stuff. I had no idea. Thanks, Flu Farm!
Lordy, I need to get out more. opcorn:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/131-0612-n-terpinal-cleaner/
​

 

[BigBison]

Nope, it's non-toxic, not saying you want to breathe the fumes but I used it outside:

http://mileschemicalsolutions.com/Remove_Powder_Coat_Remover.html

I dipped a paintbrush in their gel, brushed it onto the part, came back later to wipe it off using a sponge with no effort (rinsed the sponge in a pickle-bucket of warm water), and I was 90% done with the exhaust mani. Nooks & crannies required another pass. Rinsed it, hit the cast-iron half of the turbo snail with some white vinegar to remove the rust that formed as I worked, sprayed with WD-40, ready to ship off for re-coating. Takes a couple hours to do a part like that, but half of it's waiting, even though the coating starts to dissolve as you're painting on the gel. Works great! Unless you meant, how's it "work" and that I can't tell you, just that it does.

 

[The FLU farm]

Amazing stuff. I had no idea. Thanks, Flu Farm!
Lordy, I need to get out more. opcorn:

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/131-0612-n-terpinal-cleaner/
​

Amazing indeed, considering that the stuff I used was the old style, which really should've been heated (not necessary with the current products) but I tend to stray from directions.
Besides, it was a better test, I thought, of its capabilities to try under less than ideal conditions.

 

[BigBison]

Trying to order up four of these batteries for my FLUs:

http://www.navitassys.com/products-systems/drop-in-lithium-batteries-to-replace-lead-acid/

Those are LFP when I want LYP for improved cold-rating, but they do have built-in heaters to allow charging down to -22*F and can discharge down to -40*. All the battery-management and charge-current conversion electronics are built-in, so there's nothing else to wire up, and no modifications to the alternator output need to be made.

http://evcomponents.com/lifepo4-cell/winston-lifepo4-12v-90ah-cell.html

I ordered up a pair of those for the GMC motorhome. They'll be inside under the bedroom mattress. I'll eventually expand to six pairs for 540 amp-hours, 600 amp-hours is about what you want for a 35' motorhome, mine's a 26-footer with no slideouts, so yeah that sounds about right. Yes, the house battery-bank will be 24V, so will all the new fans and appliances, except the sound system will be 12V so I'll need a step-down converter. A dozen of those batteries tot up to 400lbs, but that capacity in lead-acid would weigh literally a ton.

I'll have pics of the GMC to post tomorrow, when we finish removing the rear cap. We're down to the last three screws, but they're corroded so badly it'll take us all morning tomorrow to get that done, other obligations prevent us from working on it this afternoon.

 

[BigBison]

The navitas batteries for my FLUs have a key selling point vs. other 6T LFP batteries I found -- milspec throughout, not just case size, meaning they're submersible. The temporary batteries in my FLUs right now, will short right out if submerged. I'd hate to not be able to ford a stream in a Unimog! Don't assume that any 6T battery, regardless of chemistry, is sumbersible just because the case is milspec.

 

[BigBison]

I'm still designing the electrical upgrades for the GMC, researching like a madman until the wee hours... Question is, do the whole system with a brand like Victron, or just use one or two of their products and go small-company for the rest? At the moment, I'm considering this unit (24/5000/120-100/100 120V) as the heart of the GMC:

https://www.victronenergy.com/inverters-chargers/quattro

That thing's just amazing in terms of how it simplifies the entire wiring job. I have a product or two from these smaller outfits whose gear draws rave reviews:

http://www.bogartengineering.com/
http://www.elconchargers.com/
http://www.hellroaring.com/

Family-owned small American businesses preferred, before buying foreign. Bogart makes a nice PWM solar charger I have sitting here with their BMS (which I have had wired to a solar panel and lead-acid battery), but I'll need to go the MPPT route to integrate the solar charger with the Quattro inverter-charger. I would've ordered my series/parallel switch from that last outfit, if I'd heard of them last week.

 

[BigBison]

I've been speaking with the folks at Navitas... what I did not realize, is that LFP batteries with integrated electronics cannot be hooked up in series, as there would be no way to equalize between batteries without external chargers/monitors. So I'll be getting one 24V battery for each FLU right soon, then another for each FLU in the future, and installing step-down converters for their trailer plugs. 12V or 24V, these batteries cost $4K per. Cheaper 6T LFP options exist, but can't be submerged. This is more than I intended to spend, but should also be the only batteries I ever need to buy for my FLUs, plus they'll integrate nicely with the master wind/solar plan for my homestead -- all my battery capacity will be vehicle-mounted. The GMC will have two NATO receptacles to extend the house-battery bank, if they're all more or less the same chemistry things become much simpler to integrate.

The GMC will also have two shore-power receptacles. One will be dedicated 120/240VAC @60Hz for the inverter-charger. The other will connect to a standalone charger (or bank of chargers) capable of automatically handling either 50 or 60Hz at any AC voltage from 85-265 for international compatibility. The GMC should be mission-capable for driving to Tierra Del Fuego, my research identified NINE different power standards between here & there. That Quattro unit also acts as my grid-tie inverter, but that capability will be limited to North America.

(If I can get it to Europe, it'll be mission-capable to invade Czechoslovakia despite only being the civvy version of the EM-50 Urban Assault Vehicle, honorary "Steel Soldier" status?)

The other cool thing about the Quattro are the three integrated programmable relays. Say my battery bank drops too low, the Quattro can be set up to start the Onan generator automatically. Just an amazing-looking product, on paper. LFP compatible, unlike most inverter-chargers; Victron's ahead of the adoption curve, there. The 2000W Newmar inverter-charger on the Dodge cost $2,750; the 5000W Quattro (thanks to a favorable currency exchange rate w/ the Euro atm) will run me $3,500. Also, it has two DC charger outputs, one high-amperage for the house bank, another 4A @24VDC out for the start battery. I'll need a step-down converter mounted next to the start battery, acting as its charger, because the "motor" part of my home will still be 12VDC. I'll update all the dash wiring and such to run off *that* instead of the + terminal of the start battery, such that the battery's only directly connected to the alternator and the starter motor. This is a boat-wiring practice I think makes a whole lotta sense for my land yacht!

From a North American standard 120/240/60Hz, 50-amp receptacle, every conceivable adapter & Y-cable is available to plug power into the standalone international charger. With my setup (not that I've quite pulled the trigger on it, I like ordering after-hours on Fridays as mentioned above), an adapter can be plugged into the receptacle wired to the Quattro. I'd be able to run all of my sub-contractors' power tools better than their own gas-powered generators, with my own 6KW Onan on standby if the sun isn't shining. But, with a FLU plugged into the GMC I'll probably be able to power two days of construction on the home I'm about to start building, just from the batteries.

 

[The FLU farm]

The navitas batteries for my FLUs have a key selling point vs. other 6T LFP batteries I found -- milspec throughout, not just case size, meaning they're submersible. The temporary batteries in my FLUs right now, will short right out if submerged. I'd hate to not be able to ford a stream in a Unimog! Don't assume that any 6T battery, regardless of chemistry, is sumbersible just because the case is milspec.

Are you saying that every time I submerged my Jeep (and its regular lead acid battery) it short circuited so I couldn't use the electric winch, or move the Jeep with the starter?
Good thing I didn't know that at the time or I would've been up the creek. Well, I was in a creek, or maybe it was a small river, but I had this bad habit of ending up in too deep water at the time.
More recently, with an Optima, I had the battery under water several times as a friend and I drove our Jeeps a few miles up a river in Nevada. Had to use the winch to get back on dry land at the end...and it worked. No odd readings on the volt meter or amp meter on any of these occasions, so the batteries involved couldn't have been overly short circuited.
In my experience, winches, starter motors and such work just fine under water. Clean water, preferably. As does batteries. What am I missing?

 

[The FLU farm]

...these batteries cost $4K per.

Yikes! And here I was miffed that Optima Group 31s have gone up in price...to $245 delivered. For $4K (times however many you want) I'd think that you could buy enough Optimas and solar panels to keep things running quite well. Worldwide.

 

[BigBison]

Are you saying that every time I submerged my Jeep (and its regular lead acid battery) it short circuited so I couldn't use the electric winch, or move the Jeep with the starter?... What am I missing?

6T "drop-in-replacement" LFP batteries all have integrated circuit boards, right there in plain sight and obviously not waterproof, unlike the Navitas products. They're all marketed to airplane, boat, and RV owners, but I only found the one submersible milspec option. Optimas are AGM so they're expected to be waterproof even if they aren't milspec. The wet-cell lead-acid batteries in my SEE could short out not mid-stream, but after crossing. Did your Jeeps have mostly-sealed, yet not water-tight, battery boxes? Plenty of places for stray current to go (not that you cared with the motor running) right up until you were no longer submerged, and neither were your batteries. Tell me how long your wet-cell lead-acid battery holds its charge submerged in a bathtub -- it won't be a dead short unless you add salt, but it's no way to treat a battery, especially if you're using the starter to move the Jeep in such circumstances... unless we're talking submersible LFP batteries, which won't be affected, but you definitely cut the service life of your wet-cell lead-acids doing that!

Salt pans & mineral springs aren't uncommon around here, "salt creep" will get right into the battery box, so the next mountain stream you cross with low-conductivity freshwater will be plenty conductive when retained inside a FLU battery box even if it's sealed out of the battery cells (hope your wet-cell covers are on tight). I'm sure milspec takes saltwater and battery-boxes into account -- the kind of battery box that holds water above the top of the batteries once you've exited the water and the current has nowhere else to go, isn't what I've seen on wheelin' Jeeps...

 

[BigBison]

Yikes! And here I was miffed that Optima Group 31s have gone up in price...to $245 delivered. For $4K (times however many you want) I'd think that you could buy enough Optimas and solar panels to keep things running quite well. Worldwide.

You can't just go by amp-hours:

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2015/03/30/batteries-lithium-ion-vs-agm/

The cost of all the ancillary electronics is no more for LFP batteries, which also weigh 80% less, are non-toxic, and won't ever explode or catch on fire, or need replacing after five years or so. Like I say, $2K would be better, and is about what Chinese 6T LFP's run, which are mass-produced. I accepted early-adopter, made-in-USA, and milspec penalties for a niche product because I can't afford to wait for a price drop by purchasing interim batteries which aren't expected to last anywhere near as long, negating any $ I may save by waiting for LFP to mature some more. Ideally, the 6TMFs that came with my FLUs wouldn't need replaced yet.

I'm OK with paying more up front than a bank of Optimas, because I have the $ now and don't know if I'll be able to afford to replace a bank of Optimas every five years instead of just not worrying about battery replacement the rest of my life. I'm stuffing some money in a mattress, sure, but mattresses last a lot longer than lead-acid batteries, right?

As do water towers, receiver tanks, air-drive water pumps with no moving parts other than a floating plastic ball, even solar panels except the way their price keeps dropping while performance keeps increasing, you can't afford *not* to replace them after a few years, so there's also that!

 

[BigBison]

I need to get in touch with these guys...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f62Z8Ev9OXA

...see if they'll don their lab coats & white gloves and put different batteries in a bathtub, add salt 'til they explode and such!

 

[The FLU farm]

Optimas are AGM so they're expected to be waterproof even if they aren't milspec. The wet-cell lead-acid batteries in my SEE could short out not mid-stream, but after crossing. Did your Jeeps have mostly-sealed, yet not water-tight, battery boxes? Plenty of places for stray current to go (not that you cared with the motor running) right up until you were no longer submerged, and neither were your batteries. Tell me how long your wet-cell lead-acid battery holds its charge submerged in a bathtub -- it won't be a dead short unless you add salt, but it's no way to treat a battery, especially if you're using the starter to move the Jeep in such circumstances... unless we're talking submersible LFP batteries, which won't be affected, but you definitely cut the service life of your wet-cell lead-acids doing that!


Salt pans & mineral springs aren't uncommon around here, "salt creep" will get right into the battery box, so the next mountain stream you cross with low-conductivity freshwater will be plenty conductive when retained inside a FLU battery box even if it's sealed out of the battery cells (hope your wet-cell covers are on tight). I'm sure milspec takes saltwater and battery-boxes into account -- the kind of battery box that holds water above the top of the batteries once you've exited the water and the current has nowhere else to go, isn't what I've seen on wheelin' Jeeps...

No, my Jeep has the battery on a shallow tray, under the floor behind the seats. I learned a long time ago that it's easier to make sure that water can get out than it is to keep it out.
During that first period of "drownings" I almost always ended up so deep that I had to shut the engine off, and occasionally the ignition system took offense and shut it off for me (still didn't have its water proofing nailed). Either way, that's why the winch and/or starter motor were required to get to dry land. Or at least get the distributor above water.
Running beyond lean in those years, I relied on used batteries, but didn't notice any ill effects from those dunkings. Besides, they rarely lasted more than 10 to 15 minutes.
Never occurred to me to put a battery in the bath tub, but now I'm curious. If I get sick and can't get anything worthwhile accomplished, I just might try it.
Salt creep? Good thing I'm a stickler when it comes to keeping the bottom of m Jeep clean. It may look like someone vomited all over it, but more than once have people commented "Wow, it's clean enough to eat off of!" when looking at its underside.

Edited due to goofed up quoting.