Frying Alternators

[74M35A2]

Military truck enthusiasts a tough crowd? I would have never imagined...

Why on your website do you demand a $200 core charge on your unit in exchange for “an undamaged” Neihoff dual voltage alternator?

Leece NeVille is not spelled with an “s” in place of the “c”.

Drop the price to $250 a pop with a 3 year warranty and you won’t be able to keep up with production.

 

[porkysplace]

Military truck enthusiasts a tough crowd? I would have never imagined...

Why on your website do you demand a $200 core charge on your unit in exchange for “an undamaged” Neihoff dual voltage alternator?

Leece NeVille is not spelled with an “s” in place of the “c”.

Drop the price to $250 a pop with a 3 year warranty and you won’t be able to keep up with production.

I was wondering about the core charge also since he claims "100% new parts, I guess a used housing is considered "NEW".

In regards to under hood temperature. I have personally measured my 2013 Chev Silverado pickup. At the alternator which is on top front of the engine 187f degrees, in July here in SC with the AC on.. Your open fender trucks probably are cooler but how about a Limo- Police Car- Taxi - SUV and many others with tight quarters. They are over 200 f for sure. Many alternators are in a good location, and many are near or over the exhaust manifolds. I was speaking in a general sense. The industry is serious about raising engine temperature higher again. That means of course, higher under hood temperatures. Higher temperatures, less pollution -cleaner burning, and better mileage. You mention pricing, $395 for a new 70 amp 24 volt J mounting alternator. Same for a 145 amp 12 volt. $495 Special includes the Air Filter Kit as seen on the web. No core charge. Pad mounting available.
Special $1495 for all new TRUE Dual voltage 12 v 145 amp and 24 volt 70 amp. Patent 7291933,9793779. 100 % new parts. Core charge for dual voltage if not received in 30 days. Shipping extra. 2 year warranty with filter kit.
more info ron@double-alt.com competitor Military alt and then our alt with filter. Notice bearing with rust and dirt in competitor.
View attachment 713124View attachment 713125 www.double-alt.com

 

[74M35A2]

He wants the Leece for benchmarking or to resell, but does not want to buy one. Claims it is a $3,300 unit.

 

[DOUBLE ALT]

To answer a few questions; I have several Dual Voltage 12/24 alternators on LMTV models. All running with success. Last post to me is a customer with 2500 plus miles on several trips. We follow up with a couple calls to check on them.
Paint is only paint. Anyone and $4 paint can change to the color they like. We however, will add a few color choices recommended.
My shop man said I made a error. We are sending out 110 amps at 27.4 volts and not the 70 amp model in our dual alternator. They are custom wound for us. Our cost is close to the standard 70 amp, so now 145 amps at 14.2 v and 110 amps at 27.4 v... Now to up date the web site. double-alt.com
By having two separate mounted alts your have to find, build, install brackets and change belt sizes to match. Yes it can be done but, it is not easy to build heavy duty and get the belts aligned. 2. The belt needs to circle around more than 90% of the pulley which usually requires a idler pulley. All of this adds to time and money. And finally you still do not have a well engineered True Dual Voltage alternator with controlled air flow, nor can you add a Air Filter.
Let me point out what I have heard and what I have seen in mounting. On the LMTV and MTV the bottom bolt is under size.
It allows the alternator to shake in the mount. The top bolt is about 3/8 inch. It breaks off or the top mount bracket cracks off. We use a 1/2 inch bolt on the bottom and 1/2 inch on the top. Case closed. The Military alt is 53 pounds (100 x 100) Ours is 31 pounds. Helps your back. Please check yours for cracks or broken top bolt and let me know.
Old saying pay now or pay later. Not trying to be a smarta---
Here is a cement truck alternator picture. I took my finger to wipe away the dirt to see the model number.
They are lucky to get 9 months on these alts before the dirt takes over. Same with many farm tractors.

 

[162tcat]

By having two separate mounted alts your have to find, build, install brackets and change belt sizes to match. Yes it can be done but, it is not easy to build heavy duty and get the belts aligned. 2. The belt needs to circle around more than 90% of the pulley which usually requires a idler pulley. All of this adds to time and money. And finally you still do not have a well engineered True Dual Voltage alternator with controlled air flow, nor can you add a Air Filter.


They are lucky to get 9 months on these alts before the dirt takes over. Same with many farm tractors.

The above post says a lot.

1st, 2500 miles of use on an MV (with no data or pics to back it up) is hardly proven.

2nd, your not very familiar with your product since the specs were incorrect. Our guys on here know there stuff inside and out.

3rd, longer belt, another alt and mounting bracket is all that I used to add a second alt. Quite easy actually.

4th, I don't think anyone on here is worried about not having an alternator filter. I've yet to hear of an alternator that failed due to unfiltered air. The pic you supplied of the cement truck likely would have failed with your alternator too due to clogged filter and overheating! They can pick a replacement deco at any truck store for between $99-159 depending on their stores pricing. That's quick, easy and cheap. All important because you can't have down time and lost revenue.

Lastly, how would your unit and filter handle being submerged? The military unit is designed for this. And there is already a military dual voltage alternator available....

Like I said, I'm sure it's a great product but we aren't your target audience. Coming on here and battling it out isn't making any new friends or customers. If you want new friends and customers here, bring something new and innovative to the table at a fair price. Not an alternator air filter. Can you design reasonably priced front locking hubs? How about differential air lockers? Both areas that we are currently lacking. Not alternator filters, sorry bud.


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[DOUBLE ALT]

Just saw the reason for core charge on dual voltage.
We take some of them apart to analyze the reason they failed. We then junk all of them.
We do not, nor would we rebuild, or re-sell. Regulator too. Not worth the trouble.
They can keep their old core. Or sell it.
Ebay has new/used dual voltage alts priced for over $1700. You would still be buying a known issue.
Ask them to lower their price. Good luck with that and Merry Christmas.

 

[162tcat]

Just saw the reason for core charge on dual voltage.
We take some of them apart to analyze the reason they failed. We then junk all of them.
We do not, nor would we rebuild, or re-sell. Regulator too. Not worth the trouble.
They can keep their old core. Or sell it.
Ebay has new/used dual voltage alts priced for over $1700. You would still be buying a known issue.
Ask them to lower their price. Good luck with that and Merry Christmas.

I didn't even have to ask!!! They lowered it!


Merry Christmas to you as well!


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[porkysplace]

To answer a few questions; I have several Dual Voltage 12/24 alternators on LMTV models. All running with success. Last post to me is a customer with 2500 plus miles on several trips. We follow up with a couple calls to check on them.
Paint is only paint. Anyone and $4 paint can change to the color they like. We however, will add a few color choices recommended.
My shop man said I made a error. We are sending out 110 amps at 27.4 volts and not the 70 amp model in our dual alternator. They are custom wound for us. Our cost is close to the standard 70 amp, so now 145 amps at 14.2 v and 110 amps at 27.4 v... Now to up date the web site. double-alt.com
By having two separate mounted alts your have to find, build, install brackets and change belt sizes to match. Yes it can be done but, it is not easy to build heavy duty and get the belts aligned. 2. The belt needs to circle around more than 90% of the pulley which usually requires a idler pulley. All of this adds to time and money. And finally you still do not have a well engineered True Dual Voltage alternator with controlled air flow, nor can you add a Air Filter.
Let me point out what I have heard and what I have seen in mounting. On the LMTV and MTV the bottom bolt is under size.
It allows the alternator to shake in the mount. The top bolt is about 3/8 inch. It breaks off or the top mount bracket cracks off. We use a 1/2 inch bolt on the bottom and 1/2 inch on the top. Case closed. The Military alt is 53 pounds (100 x 100) Ours is 31 pounds. Helps your back. Please check yours for cracks or broken top bolt and let me know.
Old saying pay now or pay later. Not trying to be a smarta---
Here is a cement truck alternator picture. I took my finger to wipe away the dirt to see the model number.
View attachment 713168 They are lucky to get 9 months on these alts before the dirt takes over. Same with many farm tractors.

If they turn the fan blades to blow out through the radiator instead sucking dirt in they wouldn't have that problem , after the holiday's I can get you some pictures of 40 year old FWD mixers that are still in use that have never had a build-up on the alternator . I'm at 23 years and a little over 6000 hours on the original delco on my Case 580SK . So a poor maintenance program doesn't equal a bad design.

 

[DOUBLE ALT]

In racing we used lockers often. Today Nascar uses them on several tracks. With close to 900 HP they seldom break. I guess the military has another problem to solve. Me,I am busy with electrical systems in vehicles.
I tell owners to not put my alternator under water. They can chance the outcome on someone else's alternator. Believe me the sealed bearings are not going to stop water after they have been used and after a couple years of use. Exhaust and other components suffer too. My so called mistake was we ran out of the 70 amp stators and put the custom wound 110 amp in it's place. A improvement. So we will continue with the higher output on the 24/28 volt side.
Air Filter not for every one either. That's why it is a add on. Do I need to document every word?

My name is Ron, son of Sgt. Frank L. Heidebrink ASN 35 453 279 killed January 30, 1945 in WWII in Belgium as a paratrooper, Earning a Purple Heart and a Silver Star. Do I need to prove this? I was in the Army reserve for 6 years. Not a big deal, SGT, working in the Motor Pool.
I am trying to be respectful, And helpful to all. They can decide. Merry Christmas to all

 

[Jbulach]

Watt...

”The alternator world has not changed much since 1963”?

You “do not believe there is an alternator today that can make it to 400,000 miles”?

We can only get a “few thousand regular road miles” out of our mil spec alternators?

“The v8 LS off road racers replace their alternators after each race”?

“The belt needs to circle around more than 90% of the pulley”?

Do you have any evidence to back these statements, or do you really just want our money?

 

[74M35A2]

I want your $ J-Dog, I’ll admit it.

Nobody here is going to pay $1,500 for an alternator. Thanks for stopping by. Next.

 

[162tcat]

I want your $ J-Dog, I’ll admit it.

Nobody here is going to pay $1,500 for an alternator. Thanks for stopping by. Next.

What he said.


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[jonesal]

And for us do-it-yourself types, and if you are patient, I was able to pick up the dual Niefhoff unit for less than $100 (and that was shipped) and have found the regulators for around $30 a pop (patience again). Spun up fine of the testing machine (in fact, it stalled it). I'm installing it in my M923 when I install the A/C (and radios). I've machined and broached the dual "v" pulley to fit it and have a preliminary design of a mounting bracket. All for a couple hundred bucks and some beer time.

Al Jones
M923
M38A1

 

[simp5782]

Im seeing a lot of gum smacking here but still no pricing... it's interesting looking but my 5tons dont see anywhere newr 187 under hood temps. Even pulling on a hot summer day in the flint hills 150 is the hottest ive ever seen. I dont run inner fenders either so perhaps that makes me cooler under the hood.

I saw 210 temps and up towing on 99 degree day. With the ac on and pulling long hills at a slow pace. The alternator i got from clint would not keep the batteries up after 10hrs. They would be nearly dead on shutoff and these are 8D's. The alternator was only rated to 200 and would protect itself. I ended up adding an air duct below the headlight to feed directly to the alternator fan.

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[DOUBLE ALT]

I understand the overheating of the alternator. What happens is the alternator is working and at the same time getting hotter.
The hotter it gets the less power it can produce. This causes it to work even harder and the cycle continues until it shuts down or burns up a part. The alternator needs to turn 5000 to 6000 rpm to make the most power/watts/amps.
If one is keeping the engine rpm down then the alt rpm is down too. Alts turn about 3 times engine speed. One could change the alt pulley to smaller to get the alt rpm up. alts can handle 10,000 for short periods like during shifting.
Look at any manufacturer and their spec sheet. Many show only the amps output at 25c like room temperature. Engine compartment more like 75c and this temperature takes about 18% of the alternator power away.
I have attached a power curve sheet from Leece Neville. The solid line is at 24c showing 275 amps and the dash line is 93c. showing 220 amps. 55 amp loss. Hugh difference. Go to remy.com they will show losses on some of theirs but, they all suffer from heat.

That's why I recommend air duct that we use.
View attachment LN 4949pgh power curve 270A.pdf

 

[74M35A2]

 

[big block 88]

Hey Wes. Check out WolverineTech. Ive had great luck with his unit 160 amp i think. Keeps my 8d batts full and strong. Though i dont run the miles you do. Our truck spends hours on end at idle in parades running tons of 24 volt 12 volt and sometimes 120ac accessories for some parades in the middle of kansas summers for several events 105 degrees with staggering humidity and never had an issue. Wloverine has been great.

to the sales fella here. I knkw your product has a market but these guys here may not be it. We keep these trucks running with ingenuity and have no issues fabricating anything.

You talk about the filters being able to handle some mud with a shield. Do you know where a 939 truck sucks its air from? The driver will suffocate before the trucks motor. Around 9-10 ft in the air is our snorkel. Ive submerged alts for years and never had any issues. Whether it be in my old mud trucks or my old deuce and half ive never taken the 939 swimming.

Another thing is our trucks over seas in the spring and summer experienced extreme heat and filth. Ever seen a sandstorm in rural iraq? I never had any of my 6 trucks over there fail from dirt. And we ran some insane radios ir lights and other accessories.

This all said i dont think you are selling junk by any means. I think your price is ridiculous but im just a consumer in the alt world. I dont know how many hours you out in one. Maybe think about reusing some of the shells? Save casting and or machine time? Im a welder by trade and ive had plenty of people shocked by charges before. These are people who dont know what goes into the work i did for them. Thats why i always present a break down of all time, costs, and explanations of why i did what i did. Pretty much a full sitrep or TSTI if you will.

 

[74M35A2]

The alternators Wolverine sells are Chinese Delco clones. They work well. He has great customer support plus includes all you need, at a very reasonable price.

The alternator I sold (?) Wes was a brand new genuine Delco 33Si 24v brushless unit, MSRP nearly $850. Wes was running 5 fans plus other stuff when the alt went into protection mode. I also had my brand new genuine Delco 24si go into this same protection mode after only 10 minutes of running. I replaced the regulator and all has been well so far. This is the alternator I am benchmarking in my avatar pic.

I think the Chinese clones are actually doing better, maybe because they are low cost and don’t have this feature to screw up.

 

[Suprman]

With the Niehoff dual voltage it divides the 28 volt output to get the 14. With the dual alt, which seems like 2 alternators mated together, how do you keep the regulation in sync with each other so the low is putting out half of the high? If the 28 volt was in the 27 range but the 14 volt was at say 14.5 volts this may cause issues with batteries and other things.

 

[74M35A2]

The stacked alt has 2 of everything, so each regulated seperately. 2 stators, 2 rotors, 2 regulators, 2 sets of slip rings. 2 alternators on a common shaft. This would provide great individual regulation of each.