fuel issues with deuce, won't start

[NITEFARMER]

Hello all,
I need help! I am about to go crazy here! My Deuce quit running several years ago and I am just getting back to working on it. It was running great and just stopped. After reading posts here I determined it was the button had come off the HH. So I put it back on and still cannot get it to start. It tries with the throttle wide open but it seems like it is only getting a very small amount of fuel. I have tried everything I know to get the lines loose at the injectors and cannot. They are so stuck that I think I am going to break the tubing, so I stopped. Any secrets for this? So I bled it off at the pump end, and then tried a little bit of ether(which I despise) and still no luck. I have fuel at the filters but would like to know which line to crack to be sure its getting good fuel to the pump? This setup is unlike any of our tractors that I work on whereas it seems the fuel goes into the pump before going into the secondary filters? Also, I checked the shutoff and it is operating freely. All my other equipment it goes thru the filters first. Getting very frustrated here as its a water truck and I need it bad, and just seem to have no luck. Any and all help greatly appreciated!!!


Thanks, NF

 

[Floridianson]

No the fuel line runs from the secondary to final and then to the IP. You might be looking at the return line on the Head that runs back to the secondary and then runs to the fuel tank. Never need to crack injector lines on the Deuce it is self clearing system with a running in tank fuel pump. If the Head has the in tank pump pressure at the Head we don't crack injectors to check for fuel or clear air. When we change the filters we bleed the air out of the system using the bleed screw that is between the secondary and final. That still leaves the final with air but as said the in tank fuel pump will clear and fill the system just let it run awhile as it won't hurt anything. The system is set up if you have fuel pressure 3 to 7 psi at the bleed and Head from the in tank. I don't have to check the pressure as long as it comes out with a little force I know the in tank fuel pump is working. The easy way I tell if the in tank fuel pump is working is to hear it with the fuel tank cap off. I also can drop off the return line at the fuel tank and watch it pump. You can also drop the fuel line from the Head or final filter and if there is some fuel pressure there then all is good with the in tank. You can even open a water bleed on the final and see if it is under pressure. It is good to know that you have good clean filters. If you have fuel pressure at the Head then we look else where. You said you replaced the button. If you got the timing right then we look to the fuel control on the Head for free movement. With engine off it should be in about the 7 o'clock position and with your finger it should move free to the 4 o'clock position and the snap back to the 7 o'clock. If all is good from there we move on to the delivery valve and then over flow valve that is on the Head.
What has been talked about the button the thoughts were the plunger sticks and that knocks off the retainer clip. Did you check the plunger for free movement when you had the Head off? Did you check the plunger key for being broken? Did you make sure the pin was on the end of the fuel control?

 

[NITEFARMER]

Thanks Floridianson,
I did most of what you mentioned. I do not know what the overflow and delivery valves are so will have to look into those. I did clean the head and the plunger was moving freely. Not sure what the plunger key is but if its the sheet metal piece across the bottom that sits in the gear, it was fine. The tab on the end of the fuel control was fine and I think I got it in correctly. It does move freely from 4 to 7. Thanks again.

 

[Floridianson]

Is them system circulating fuel?

 

[gimpyrobb]

Nitefarmer, how did you get to the button if the fuel lines are stuck in there?
lined
So lots of times those injection lines are a real pain in the Trump. The best way I've found is to get the smallest hammer you can find. Put your wrench on the line and put slight pressure on it. Then with the other hand, use than hammer and tap the wrench lightly for like 100 times. The vibration WILL loosen the line, you just have to be patient.

A lot of atf on the fittings helps loosen it too.

 

[Floridianson]

Think he was talking about the injector side. Yea I don't like to mess with them at the injector if I don't have to so as not to twist one if the ferrule does not spin. I have removed the Head with just taking off the vibration clips and with help I wrapped a belt around the loose lines at the head and as I lifted carefully Pete removed the Head.
As for the no start I might want to start at the bottom if your sure the button clip stayed on. I like to use new ones.
First fuel is moving through the head and returning to tank. Timing is correct. Then maybe checking delivery valve and the overflow.
Just to add if I have a truck I have not started for months I let the in tank pump while I smoke a cig. then try and fire it up.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Oh! I forgot that part.

The fuel goes from the primary filter to the booster pump on the IP then to the secondary filters then to the hydraulic head.

 

[NITEFARMER]

Ok, thanks to all. I don't think it is circulating thru the head. Here's an update on what I've done/found. I cracked the line coming into the HH and good fuel here. I cracked the line coming out of the HH, and nothing here, this is at idle position. I pulled the center plug out to re-check the piston, and it is moving and pumping fuel. I did let the elec pump run several minutes before trying to start. I need advice on checking the delivery and overflow valves. I was wondering if maybe I didn't get the tab in the slot correctly on the shutoff but then I think even if I didn't, this would only prevent me from being able to shut it off, not keep it from starting, correct? I'm assuming timing is correct as I put the marked tooth back in at the pointer, same as where I took it out. And yes, I was talking about the lines at the injectors, as this is what I was always taught on bleeding the tractors. Keep throwing ideas at me as I am willing to keep trying until we figure it out. Thanks again!

 

[Floridianson]

One would think that you got the fuel control tab in the collar slot or it would not have gone in. I have found when installing the fuel control that the arm on the fuel control has to be at around the 4 o'clock position because the collar is slid down on the plunger. You did say that when you tested the fuel control that when engine off it looks to be in the 7o'clock position and with you finger you can push it back to the 4 o'clock but then it snaps back to 7o'clock. I just through stuff out there and as for the delivery or overflow I only remember one case of the delivery spring being rusted through and broke.

 

[gimpyrobb]

No, if the tit didn't get into the tab on the fuel block, it will not start.

 

[Floridianson]

That's why I asked about the 7/4 thing but not with that in mind. If it did not then the fuel control would be way off the 7/4. One thing we should check when installing the head is free movement of the collar buy turning the head upside down and watch the collar move. If the tab was under it should start but go to higher rpm and not be able to drop. Seems like if it was on top then the fuel control arm would be at 7 o'clock but move up till it hit the fuel control retaining screws to the forward side and never go to 6/5/4 o'clock If it was able to happen and the arm was off its clock yes it would not start as we have no control of the collar and its slid down in the stop position. If the pin fell off then correct the collar would be down and not start easy to check though two screws. Also when installing the fuel control the pin faces forward but here I don't think he took the fuel control apart. Do remember a member took the fuel control shaft apart and put the arm back right but the shaft was backwards along with the pin and 4 o'clock was wide open and 7 was shut down. Bad thing to happen.
Just for smitts and giggles I would check timing and fuel control again for easy checks.

 

[NITEFARMER]

Ok guys, so y'all got me thinking. I thought I read somewhere that I was supposed to put the tab back in at 7 oclock, so that was what I had done. So hoping I had it in wrong, I went out and pulled it out and then put it back in at 4 oclock. Without the lever rod hooked in, it would move from 4 oclock to 9 oclock. Lever in it goes from 4 to 7 as it should. Just knew it was going to start, but no, exact same thing. Tried until I ran the batts down, so its on charger tonite. Yes, I did check the collar when the head was off and it moves freely. So I moved on to the trans, which started this whole problem, which is stuck in 3rd. I need help here as well but will start a new post. I read some other posts that are making me think maybe the HH is bad, but cant figure out how, as this truck ran perfect before, started as soon as you hit the button without any kind of aid, even at zero. And this was also without the tank pump working! Has anyone ever put a gage in the HH center plug hole to determine good or bad by the pressure? Thanks again! With y'alls help, I'm gonna get it! Pretty frustrated right now, but not going to give up!

 

[mmeridith]

Nitefarmer, the passages in the hh can get gummed up & fouled from sitting. You can have fuel at the center plug but the quill shaft cant pump the fuel through the passages to the injectors. Quick test would be to break your lines loose at the injectors and slip a small water bottle over the end of the line. Have soldier A turn over the engine while soldier B watches the bottle for squirts of fuel.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[mmeridith]

I imported a few Chinese HD90100A/HD90101A heads if you find out yours is bad.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[NITEFARMER]

Nitefarmer, the passages in the hh can get gummed up & fouled from sitting. You can have fuel at the center plug but the quill shaft cant pump the fuel through the passages to the injectors. Quick test would be to break your lines loose at the injectors and slip a small water bottle over the end of the line. Have soldier A turn over the engine while soldier B watches the bottle for squirts of fuel.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

It was a little bit in it but I cleaned everything good with carb cleaner. I am unable to get the lines to come loose at the injectors but did have some fuel at the HH end. It seems I have less now than I did two days ago, so not sure why that would change. Seems if anything, it would get better as it continues to bleed itself.

 

[NITEFARMER]

Ok, so I piddled with it a little this evening. I think the problem is it is not getting enough fuel. It pours fuel(like a garden hose) out of the elec pump at the intake of HP pump. But when I take the line off that comes from the HP pump where it goes into the filters, its no where near as much. Its more than it would use running but no where near what I expected. I'd say I got about 10oz's in about ten seconds of turning it over and that was spinning fast with hot batts. And it seems to be the same amount at the line going into the IP. I barely get a small stream/trickle with only the elec pump running - is this normal? But the main reason I now think it is starving for fuel is, is if I turn it over for about 5 sec at idle and then go to WOT, I can tell it is getting a little fuel as it will start to fire a very little bit, but that will only last about 4-5 sec and then it goes back to not firing just like if I had let the throttle off. Then if I do let the throttle back to idle for 5 sec and then back to WOT the scenario repeats. I guess there still could be an issue in the HH, but just seems like I'm missing something. Does this seem to be about the right amounts? What is the HP pump? and does it have anything in them that goes bad?

 

[rustystud]

Ok, so I piddled with it a little this evening. I think the problem is it is not getting enough fuel. It pours fuel(like a garden hose) out of the elec pump at the intake of HP pump. But when I take the line off that comes from the HP pump where it goes into the filters, its no where near as much. Its more than it would use running but no where near what I expected. I'd say I got about 10oz's in about ten seconds of turning it over and that was spinning fast with hot batts. And it seems to be the same amount at the line going into the IP. I barely get a small stream/trickle with only the elec pump running - is this normal? But the main reason I now think it is starving for fuel is, is if I turn it over for about 5 sec at idle and then go to WOT, I can tell it is getting a little fuel as it will start to fire a very little bit, but that will only last about 4-5 sec and then it goes back to not firing just like if I had let the throttle off. Then if I do let the throttle back to idle for 5 sec and then back to WOT the scenario repeats. I guess there still could be an issue in the HH, but just seems like I'm missing something. Does this seem to be about the right amounts? What is the HP pump? and does it have anything in them that goes bad?

Are you telling us you haven't changed out the fuel filters yet ?!?!?!?!!!! Honestly that is the "FIRST" thing you should have done . Replace the filters and then if you still have problems let us know. Replace all three !

 

[gimpyrobb]

I have the correct fuel filters with the correct gaskets for the secondary filters, gov surplus with nsn. PM if your interested.

 

[NITEFARMER]

I did change the filters but from some of the posts Ive read, I may need to do it again. But, if you go back and read my post again, I am concerned that there is not enough fuel going into or coming out of the secondary filters. And it is a huge amount coming thru the primary to the HP pump.

 

[gimpyrobb]

Hard to say. Some have reported booster pump issues in the past, but I have yet to encounter any problems with them yet.