Fuel sticker violation in NC

[westfolk]

Some google fu:

2010 Pennsylvania Code
Title 75 - VEHICLES
Chapter 96 - Motor Carriers Road Tax
9602 - Definitions.


"Recreational vehicle." Vehicles such as motor homes, pickup trucks with attached campers and buses when used exclusively for personal pleasure by individuals. In order to qualify as a recreational vehicle, the vehicle shall not be used in connection with any business endeavor."

Seems like 'SUCH AS" gives some wiggle room. I think this would get you out of a citation if properly framed.

Right. It is that "such as" that was the problem. It was discussed if the words "for example" were there instead. Ended the same. This is due to no definition for the term "recreational vehicle" in the code.

My whole deal ended with the Judge saying he agreed to the point I'd made, however they have to go by "what the law says, not what we know it dean't mean". I paid $34.50 to the county and that was the end of it. Followed by a discussion of how to fix the issue. It is why my 109 trucks have some type of camping equipment in them, and I carry the laptop and briefcase in the other trucks. Both the Judge and State cop agreed that would cover it because I'm not using them for business. However it was pointed out that in another county it may not be seen the same.

This is why for many months I have been trying to get things changed as to the wording of the code. Though I don't see it changing because it closes a loophole for the state to make money.

While at the same time, as it stands, an individual can not fill out the form to obtain an IFTA sticker be it interstate or in-state. This again due to the wording.

This is how it is in PA. Other states are different I'm sure. You have to watch how it's worded.

 

[overlordofmars]

We used to keep logs in our heavy trucks, at the end of the year we used the total cost of fuel as a tax deduction. But when the trucks were no longer used for commercial uses, we were exempted.

 

[MyothersanM1]

This whole IFTA thing is flippin' confusing. What I gather from my neck of the woods is no travel beyond your "jurisdiction" no sticker needed.

So, my question to the OP, granted your truck is registered in NC, is why did the LEO cite you for no sticker if you were operating in your jurisdiction. Under the verbiage, as I understand it, he had no authority to cite you. Now if you had SC registration, to be hypothetical here, he could cite you. I personally would not even know where to begin with enforcing this type of legal confusion. But. then again I am not going to mess with a guy and his Deuce. Just not my bag.

This whole thing is just another big government proverbial squeeze of the bloodless turnip. This is the type of thing that sours us as hobbyist trying to enjoy our pastime while preserving our nation's history and military heritage and honoring our military veterans. I can understand if an MV is being used as a business to levy road use taxes upon it, but not for a pleasure/recreational/historical vehicle.

I am personally tired of being nickeld and dimed to death with all these burdensome taxes that don't even apply to usage. My truck and I have both served our country honorably. Let us be. Sorry...my

 

[paulfarber]

Was it a Magistrate or an actual judge? Unless a law specifically enumerates the vehicle, the term 'such as' and 'for example' are synonymous.

The job of a Judge is to interpret the law. The legal definition is clearly open to interpretation, but the clincher should have been the last part about 'the vehicle shall not be used in connection with any business endeavor.'

Did you represent yourself or hire an attorney?

I intend to not get any IFTA decals. If I get pulled over then I'll fight it (as a rule I fight all tickets/citations).

I think you suffered from 'dumb-judge-itus' rather than a clear INTERPRETATION of the law.

What was the docket number as the ruling could help others. If its just a magistrates verdict then don't bother... but if an actual judge ruled then please list the docket number and county please.

 

[paulfarber]

This whole IFTA thing is flippin' confusing. What I gather from my neck of the woods is no travel beyond your "jurisdiction" no sticker needed.

So, my question to the OP, granted your truck is registered in NC, is why did the LEO cite you for no sticker if you were operating in your jurisdiction. Under the verbiage, as I understand it, he had no authority to cite you. Now if you had SC registration, to be hypothetical here, he could cite you. I personally would not even know where to begin with enforcing this type of legal confusion. But. then again I am not going to mess with a guy and his Deuce. Just not my bag.

This whole thing is just another big government proverbial squeeze of the bloodless turnip. This is the type of thing that sours us as hobbyist trying to enjoy our pastime while preserving our nation's history and military heritage and honoring our military veterans. I can understand if an MV is being used as a business to levy road use taxes upon it, but not for a pleasure/recreational/historical vehicle.

I am personally tired of being nickeld and dimed to death with all these burdensome taxes that don't even apply to usage. My truck and I have both served our country honorably. Let us be. Sorry...my

The mileage and tax paid still has to be accounted for. In PA, there is a NON-IFTA fuel sticker that you need if you never leave the 'juristication'. Done annually vs quarterly.. but still a decal with penalties if you forget to file.

The tax is offset (for businesses) somewhat because fuel is an expense and can be written off as such. So if you pay $10,000 a year in fuel, and of that $2000 is tax, you get to expense the whole $10,000.

I agree with the fuel tax in general... its one of the few 'self funding' taxes that makes sense. The burden is that a small class of vehicle collectors are caught up in the law. How many tri-axle POV's do you think are in PA? A few dozen? Maybe 100-200?

With the number of tri-axle dump trucks for coal and construction I don't see PA making huge changes. If I get hit with a no-decal citation I'll fight it in court. Problem is that the Magistrate level is almost a sure loss (they don't really have much leeway and other than being a member of the bar are simply elected).

 

[Blythewoodjoe]

I feel real bad for the original poster here. It seems NC is bad about these things. The only ticket I have gotten in the last 25 years was in a commercial truck in NC. I got screwed. But that is another story. Let me point out something else some of you clearly have not learned yet. I have learned it the hard way and just yesterday found out how much my state (SC) can screw good people. The government (in general) is a big hungry beast right now and looks for ways to take everything they can from the people. They can pass laws that prohibit the private sector from doing that but they can pass laws that enable them to do just that. They don't screw the general public because most Americans are armed. But those of us that own something out the ordinary are prime targets. It's easy to right a ticket and costly or impossible to avoid paying it. They make you feel grateful by writing less than they could. They keep you out of court by making it costly to go. They don't do court on weekends or at night do they? Most of us would lose more money taking a day off work to fight a $100 ticket than it would cost to pay the ticket.

I could go on for hours so I will stop. Bottom line is: The party's over. Government needs money and we have money. They can take our money and hire people to come collect it.

I must add I have the utmost respect for decent law enforcement and those that work to keep our communities safe. Lots of good people there. I have any need for the Transport people here in SC. Most of them suck, revenue generators that target trucks with money (like me).

 

[shovelheadmike]

In NC you must have the Federal sticker if you drive in any state in addition to NC. If you only drive in NC, then you must have the NC state only sticker. Either one or the other. Either way, you are required to have a sticker if you have 3 axles on your truck.

 

[paulfarber]

I don't want to get all patriotic but unless you fight the ticket they will not stop.

The fines/fees for forgetting to file are just as bad as not having the sticker.

I fight every ticket I get. I have gotten speeding tickets, inspection sticker tickets, tag tickets you name it and fought them all.... and won.

Some on technicalities, others on sound legal precedent.

But I do take the day off, I do go to court. I remember once when I was stationed in Charleston I drove al the way to VA to fight a speeding ticket... and won (timed me via pacing but didn't pace for long enough).

 

[SCRAP]

As much as I hate to say it, you might want to get a lawyer representing you, because the fines alone are probably more than attorneys fees. Plus you have the satisfaction of grilling them on the facts.

 

[westfolk]

Was it a Magistrate or an actual judge? Unless a law specifically enumerates the vehicle, the term 'such as' and 'for example' are synonymous.

The job of a Judge is to interpret the law. The legal definition is clearly open to interpretation, but the clincher should have been the last part about 'the vehicle shall not be used in connection with any business endeavor.'

Did you represent yourself or hire an attorney?

I intend to not get any IFTA decals. If I get pulled over then I'll fight it (as a rule I fight all tickets/citations).

I think you suffered from 'dumb-judge-itus' rather than a clear INTERPRETATION of the law.

What was the docket number as the ruling could help others. If its just a magistrates verdict then don't bother... but if an actual judge ruled then please list the docket number and county please.

It was the president Judge of the county, Mckean county. Yes, I did have counsel. Though you'd never know it. He ended up talking to a brick wall just as I did at the JP level. I'll have to find the docket number. As I say I was found gulty with a fine of $34.50 imposed. The Judge did agree that the law was lacking in its choice of words and that its intent is for commerce not private vehicles. However, that he had to "go by what is written". I don't think he wanted to set the standard on this one. Though the state boys just pass me now, including the one that originally wrote me the citation.

I am still trying to get it changed though. So far it looks like the best option is to have the term "recreational vehicle" get a definition on the books.

That will take care of PA, that still leaves all the other states........

 

[hdmax]

Seeing how you were on your Dad's property, I believe you did have a choice to allow, or disallow him a sample of the fuel. But to late now.

 

[Bulldog 4]

IFTA stickers are ONLY for commercial vehicles. Commercial vehicles have different license plates and are registered and taxed differently. If you were using a mil veh commercially you would have to file quarterly IFTA reports itemizing how many miles traveled in each state, how much fuel was purchased in each state, etc. You would also have to pay federal highway tax, usually referred to by the IRS form number it is filed on "2290". Other requirements depend on GVWR and number of axles, but this is still only for commercial vehicles. In no case,, either in a commercial or personal vehicle, are you allowed to run off road (dyed) fuel on the road. When you pay for fuel at the pump there are federal and state taxes added to the price. Off road fuel does not have these taxes in the price so it is cheaper, but it is required to have a red dye in it.

 

[Ferroequinologist]

If we pop our heads up enough, they might see us as a whole (MV collector/operators) as a new source of funds. "Hey, they can spend all this money on old military trucks, we can take some of that!" Then we might get federal exemption from other laws, say IFTA and CDL. But then we have to all register as HMVs, pay 'HMV tax' and have set 'HMV' insurance, with a specific HMV code book, safety checks, fuel taxes, etc etc etc. I can see this blowing up in our faces too. As was said before- they are hungry for money, and if we can keep old trucks on the road we must have some they can take.

 

[Bulldog 4]

As a commercial truck driver and former owner/operator I can tell you that the price difference is huge on everything once you get into commercial. They have seen us as a cash cow for a very long time. The difference in the price of insurance, the extra road taxes, the price of everything at a truck stop, it all adds up. The cost of compliance with all the rules and regulations such as log books, drug testing, etc, is another factor. Believe me, if we can get away with licensing our trucks as RVs or whatever, anything but commercial, we are so much better off.

 

[EMD567]

It's a personal vehicle for personal use, and I ain't paying any extra fuel tax. If they want taxes spilt among the states, then they can tax the folks that buy gas in one state, and travel in others also............

 

[paulfarber]

Lots of people pooping and posting completely incorrect info.. how about read the thread before posting?

Its NOT an extra fuel tax. IFTA simply is a way to pay the states that you drive through fairly. I am not a fan of taxes, but fuel taxes are the only taxes that do what they say they do.

As posted earlier... its NOT JUST COMMERCIAL VEHICLES. Either by weight or axle numbers you can be scarfed up.

Don't post 'not in my state' till you check... chances are that you are liable, you just don't know it or refuse to accept it.

 

[paulfarber]

As much as I hate to say it, you might want to get a lawyer representing you, because the fines alone are probably more than attorneys fees. Plus you have the satisfaction of grilling them on the facts.

Magistrate Courts in Schuylkill County PA don't allow lawyers or discovery (so districts do, most do not).. so unless you dazzle the Magistrate you will fail and will have to appeal to the next level.

If they haul you in for an Administrative hearing (DOT can do that) you have even less rights... as its not a criminal court.

 

[Bulldog 4]

This quote is from the WI web site, but all states are the same regarding IFTA:

International fuel tax agreement (IFTA)

IFTA is an agreement among all states (except Alaska and Hawaii) and Canadian provinces (except Northwestern Territories, Nunavut and Yukon) to simplify the reporting of fuel used by motor carriers operating in more than one jurisdiction. Persons who operate qualified motor vehicles are subject to IFTA licensing.
Qualified motor vehicle - a motor vehicle used, designed, or maintained for transportation of persons or property and:

• Having two axles and a gross vehicle weight or registered gross vehicle weight exceeding 26,000 pounds or 11,797 kilograms; or
• Having three or more axles regardless of weight; or
• Is used in combination, when the weight of such combination exceeds 26,000 pounds or 11,797 kilograms gross vehicle or registered gross vehicle weight. Qualified motor vehicle does not include recreational vehicles.

Recreational vehicle - vehicles such as motor homes, pickup trucks with attached campers, and buses when used exclusively for personal pleasure by an individual. In order to qualify as a recreational vehicle, the vehicle shall not be used in connection with any business endeavor.

 

[jblack6527]

(snip)
GENERAL STATUTE 105-449.47: THE WEIGHT DECLARED ON THIS REGISTRATION MUST BE SUFFICIENT TO COVER THE WEIGHT OF THE VEHICLE PLUS ANY AMOUNT HAULED OR PULLED. IF THE VEHICLE IS OVERWEIGHT, YOU ARE SUBJECT TO A CITATION, A VEHICLE WITH A COMBINED WEIGHT EXCEEDING 26,000 POUNDS OR HAVING 3 AXLES REGARDLESS OF WEIGHT MUST DISPLAY A FUEL DECAL (NOT INCLUDING RECREATIONAL VEHICLES).
(snip)

This exact statement is on your NC registration card if you will look.

 

[Bulldog 4]

For commercial vehicles, IFTA is just a way for all of the states to get their fair share of fuel tax money. Most 18 wheelers have fuel tank capacities of 160-300+ gallons. It is common to fuel up in one state and drive across 3 more before you need fuel again. IFTA lets the 3 states in the middle get some of the tax money based on the mileage you drove in that state. Since every state sets their own tax rates when you file your quarterly reports you will sometimes get a refund or you may owe some depending on where you buy your fuel. Some states charge an extra mileage surcharge above what they take out at the pump. It gets complicated.