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Fun with PA DOT officer ending in putting me out of service + $1200 in fines

Demoh

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St Pete, FL
Just my .02

It just plain sucks to see what you have been put through. I do not have specific PA experience but will share general life experiences.

Traffic and Vehicle safety is under the guise of "public Safety" but is generally a revenue enhancement process. The fact that a contracted person issued the citations tell me he has only one master. His boss and the contract. The County probably like the increased fees and court costs so they recommend keeping the contract... There is probably already a cozy relationship and volume this agent/company gives the county and they get accustomed to the cash cow. Sure they might seem impartial but the deck is already stacked against you.

The State trooper was probably there in case you mouthed off, became belligerent, or constituted a public nuisance..... You can figure out the next saga.

You will spend a good amount of $ on attorney and travels/costs/fees/time away.

In like situations I wait till the documents hit the appropriate court jurisdiction and ask to speak to the assistant DA handling traffic cases. I try to make a pretrial conference on phone or in person stating I will pay the full court costs and fines but can they be pleaded down to non moving violations so it does not affect my insurance. The court and Da want the $, so they are still getting that and pleading down does not hurt them. They win and you get a smaller break. Figure which of these citations are the ones that will hit your insurance driving record and become the problem. Typically equipment issues are non moving violations and do not impact insurance unless you have a job that driving is part of the employment. Many states also have clauses that if there are no further citations in a period of times, the charges go off your record. In La, we have article that lets you get the charges removed off your record in 90 days is there are no other violations in the period. You have to ask for it and the DA has to agree to it so never act or sound stupid so they will be willing to work with you. Of course all fees and fines are kept by the jurisdiction. Work out a plea and never go back to PA....

You will end up paying one way or another big bucks, It is just a matter of what is in your best interest.
Very informative. I figured as much for the trooper being there.

I look at this whole situation as a learning experience. Yes its a lot of money and yes its a real pita, but its really about how I move forward with the situation. I for dang sure will be making sure I have my ducks in a row.

Im thinking that best case I can prove that I am not commercial and the CMV stuff gets dropped. Doubt that will happen but wishful thinking. I do like the idea of trying to work with the DA. Im going to start looking into that. I am going to assume that this is all before signing any of the citation paperwork which will record pleading guilty or not guilty or if working with a lawyer to maybe instruct them on this is the direction I would want to take.

The best item for me would be points to keep the insurance down, I already have cheap insurance I dont need that to become like a house payment.
 

Demoh

Member
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St Pete, FL
Except in the OP's case, the renta-LEO didn't care and left that determination for the courts.
Pretty much... His choices were "oh this guy is personal, guess I gotta let him go" or "lets try to get him as commercial and nail his butt to the wall"

You know, I would have been better off driving a dang RV with a trailer than my pickup truck.
 

CARNAC

The Envelope Please.
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So they're claiming legal reasons (with no real recourse to the out of stater) to take money from you. Sounds like thievery to me.
 

Bulldogger

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Sorry to hear of your unfortunate treatment from the DOT people in Pennsylvania. Different states have different rules, and different ways of enforcing laws and raising revenue.
But, as I understand State-to-State dealings... You don't have to pay the ticket in Pennsylvania. You just can't drive through Pennsylvania again, unless you want to take your chances about being arrested. Since arrest warrants are typically only valid in the state in which they are issued.

But that said, I like your plan to appeal it through the court, and tactfully and politely challenge the officers actions (as a moneymaking venture, check how the money flows between the court and the cops and try to get into a court that isn't in bed w them) while sticking to the facts that you are not a commercial venture and your state that licenses you allows you to operate your vehicle and your trailer privately.

I agree with those who are of the opinion that this DOT enforcement officer is banking (literally) on you not challenging the ticket.

Bulldogger
 

TechnoWeenie

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This is Bravo Sierra.....

When I drove my M934 from Ft. Bragg to Seattle, I specifically called my state's Commercial Vehicle Enforcement (WA)...Which said that private = private = NO CDL.... I then called every state in my planned drive back, NC, VA, W.VA, MD, PA, and they ALL said that if I have a license in WA state, I can drive under the privilege of that license.. As an example, in MD I would need an air brake endorsement, but since my WA license didn't require one, I could drive through without problem. Each officer I talked to suggested printing out their state's laws and keeping them with me, as NOT ALL troopers/officers are familiar with the ins/outs, and even my own state Dep't of Licensing (DMV/MVA) was giving out bad information, contradicting state law (It's still on their web page).. The funny conversations were when the state troopers/CVE/etc each had their own version of 'if you transport ANYTHING and get paid for it, you're now commercial. If your buddy asks you to get him lunch and you bring it to him, and he pays you, you need a CDL'..... LOL

Sounds like this is one of those ill informed officers that CVE warned me about...
 

Dock Rocker

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Jackson ms
Yikes when did the Feds pass FMCSR 390.5 making gvw between 10,001 and 26,000 CMV territory? This is a F150 with a 3000 gvw trailer!!!
It’s 10,001 for the tractor (or this case the truck) or the combination weight of the truck tractor at 26,001. A 1/2 ton and trailer is no where near 26,001.

The reason all 3/4 ton trucks have a GVWR of 10,000 is so they stay under 10,001 for the truck and even with 7k axles the combination of the 3/4 ton truck and the 14k trailer is still under 26,001 lbs.

Now where you go to a one ton you are regulated not truck only at over 10k and truck trailer combo.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

zebedee

conceptualizer at large
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Demoh - good luck in your quest - there is a lot riding on this for many members here - PA is (was!) a good state for ex-mil gear.

Hopefully this will be resolved to your satisfaction and you can report back when things progress. Subscribed.
 

CARNAC

The Envelope Please.
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Take a reporter with you. I tend not to like reporters but this could very well turn into the Harvey Weinstein of the dot world.
 

AMTAK

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Location
Elizabeth PA
I have had problems with this also. Main thing is if when the pull you over and ask what you do with your "generators" you say "I am going to use them for my house". Officer asks "do you ever sell them"? You say "no, I use them till they fall apart and use them for parts" Officer "do you sell the parts"? "No, the parts are to valuable to me".
Now when he asks to see your paper work from GL and it says "Bobs generator service" your screwed! Use your personal name and pay the sales tax.
PA lets local cops become DOT officers after classes. Problem is they see that 10k thing and they get wood every time they see a 1 ton truck. That's why I use a 2500 chevy that I put 1 ton springs under.
I have a DOT number because I go out of state and I am a business. Log book, medical card, fire ext, triangles, federal vehicle inspection (each truck and trailer every year) UCR registration $75.
I don't need a CDL because I am under 26000 GCVW. Truck 9400 GW trailer 16,000 GW. If you had a 11000 truck and a 7000 trailer you are still under 26k so you are good. It's the guys who run the one tons and the big 31k trailers that are in need of the CDL.
Make sure when you fight it you say you are hulling "personal property" That's what they call in on the DOT forms.
 

Demoh

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St Pete, FL
Demoh - good luck in your quest - there is a lot riding on this for many members here - PA is (was!) a good state for ex-mil gear.

Hopefully this will be resolved to your satisfaction and you can report back when things progress. Subscribed.

Thats one of the reasons I brought this here to warn everybody of what 'could' happen when grabbing stuff from letterkenny.

Now when he asks to see your paper work from GL and it says "Bobs generator service" your screwed! Use your personal name and pay the sales tax.
I think this is where he has me by the nads. First, I was empty so there was no property at all with me at the time. Second, my item releases state my company name and my friend's company name, even though we both paid for them personally, paid sales tax, etc... All communication with the officer were that they were personal because of the hurricane we just went though.
 

PaFarmer

Active member
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Location
PA
My 2 cents, this should not have been a DOT matter if the hauling was personal vs business. Some folks put “not for hire”on their truck to make clear they are not commercial and have no DOT number. I believe PA requires special licensing for vehicles with GRVW of 26000 or truck and trailer combined at that weight. Either CDL or non-commercial CDL for big RVs and big toy haulers. It does not sound like your truck and trailer were at that weight and maybe it would not matter anyway being from FL. I don’t have any recommendations on a lawyer, but if I were in your shoes I would fight it. For what it is worth I have hauled tandem trailers with 1 ton and bigger pickups and never had an issue in Pa. frankly, I have never heard of a similar issue here.
 

98G

Former SSG
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The last DOT officer to pull me over commented on my "not for hire" on my pickup truck door. He stated he considers that an admission of guilt and that he pulls over every vehicle he sees with such labeling.
 

simp5782

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The last DOT officer to pull me over commented on my "not for hire" on my pickup truck door. He stated he considers that an admission of guilt and that he pulls over every vehicle he sees with such labeling.
I would tell him that's considered profiling. I want to see him pull over a grandma in a 79 Buick Lesabre with "Not for hire" on the door.
 

simp5782

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I will be headed up to Letterkenny in a few weeks. I will be in my 5 ton with it's big trailer. I will see what happens. I will make sure to have a body camera on me.
 

Special T

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I will be headed up to Letterkenny in a few weeks. I will be in my 5 ton with it's big trailer. I will see what happens. I will make sure to have a body camera on me.
Not a bad idea, but it also wouldn't hurt to do a few things like have been stated in this thread.
Everything in legal working order.
Big fire extinguisher
Copy of the rules and regs from your home state.
A copy of rules and regs of the state in question backing up your case.

I really like the camera idea and tho k one of those cams that double as a rear view mirror may be a sound investment.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
 

simp5782

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Not a bad idea, but it also wouldn't hurt to do a few things like have been stated in this thread.
Everything in legal working order.
Big fire extinguisher
Copy of the rules and regs from your home state.
A copy of rules and regs of the state in question backing up your case.

I really like the camera idea and tho k one of those cams that double as a rear view mirror may be a sound investment.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk

If they pull over an unmarked 5 ton then they are probably begging for trouble not knowing if its a military truck or not. Being that TN does not require us to display tags if its been spray etched or marked otherwise. As long as its in the cab. I have DOT #s and ELD system but I will be on my own time.

I am also a law student and I know the DOT laws as I handle them as part of some pro bono I do for credit hours in a traffic court. Most are legit against truckers but then again.

This is not legal advice but sound advice from things I see and deal with on regular basis, Sorry if this offends LEO's but I have been on that side of the fence and we all know that line that has to be walked.

First thing is first for people who don't know better. Keep your doors locked, Never get out of the truck if they ask you to. Never turn off your truck if they ask you to. Some states have an idle vehicle law that prohibits you from unattended idling well if you stay in the vehicle then its not against the law to leave your vehicle running. Ask the officer "Can I help you?" this means no admission of guilt and makes him state the reason he pulled you over immediately rather than you offering up a reason. Never consent to a search or inspection, always ask them if you are being detained if they start to drag on about it, if so, what for? If they say you are being detained ask for them to call their supervisor to join you there and you don't want to speak to them until he arrives. This is the same thing as the Miranda rule. If they pulled you over for a crime even a traffic ticket you have the right to remain silent. If they pulled you over for no reason at all other than to bug you then you still have no obligation to talk to them. Don't be afraid to tell them No. If they ask for your id but have said you have done nothing wrong you have the right to refuse him to see your id and registration. Even in Stop and ID states. If you have done nothing wrong they don't need to know who you are.

You do not have to identify yourself unless they say you have committed a crime or are about to commit a crime (this probable cause is vague and sketchy at best on their side) especially on a traffic stop. Which means keep your ID and your vehicle registration in your pocket and out of their site until they tell you what you have done wrong. Don't offer up information you don't have to.

Ask why you were pulled over, if he says cause I think you are a commercial vehicle you simply say that you aren't and ask if you are free to go? if he says no then ask if you are being detained. if he says no then you are free to go. If he says yes, ask for his supervisor and keep your mouth shut. Too many people are in prison cause they told on themselves. Supervisors don't like taking on things that are going to give them a hard time. They would much rather be goofing off not doing a dang thing. I see soo many times where people have called for a supervisor and they are let go. because they don't want to deal with it.

If you say you are private to a DOT officer He has no legal reason to keep you. And do not answer any questions regarding commercial vehicles. They have to see your door jam in order to see the GVW of the truck. Deny them the opportunity to see it. Keep your door closed even if you get out of the truck. If they want to weigh your truck/trailer. Tell them no. They cant force you to weigh nor can they take over and operate your vehicle to weigh it without seizing control of it. Impounding. Pretty much. An out of service is not an impound remember that. They have no control over it physically to move it. Keep your paperwork for whatever you just picked up private and in your dang pocket. They don't need to know anything. Possession is the law unless they suspect its stolen. If they want to check if its stolen we all know the military serial # wont come back as a thing. So you don't have to tell them anything about what is on your trailer. They have to prove it is not yours which is hard on the side of the road. If they want to look at the vin however and you did not consent to a search they can not climb on your trailer or on anything belonging to you. It violates your rights. Period. Once you claim you are private the scope of searches gets very very narrow unlike the relm of a commercial vehicle that they don't have to have a warrant to search or look inside of.

Always turn your phone camera on so it can see what is going on. Some officers encourage it, some don't. but it keeps them honest. If they tell you to turn it off, don't. You have the right in all 50 states to film any public servant or official in the course of their duties. Off duty is a different story as it constitutes stalking or some other type of media restriction law but while on the clock they can be filmed with or without their knowledge. Period.
Not legal advice just sound advice from human to human.
 
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sue

Active member
427
346
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Location
tulsa OK
I agree with “simp” , I come from a law enforcement family
and most people would not believe what he said, it is very
true. If not look up “ no talk traffic stop videos on *tube.
and I drove a truck for a number of years and did not follow
in the family tradition of blue, and we all know there are good
and bad who wear a badge, and some of the good even have
a bad day. I hope that you fight this and file complaints against
those involved. You would be surprised how effective officer
complants are.
 

WV New Guy

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Location
Berkeley Springs WV
Being a former resident of PA for 40yrs most law enforcement is over the top and I have family working State Law enforcement in PA . I stay off of I-81 even in my car take I-81 to 70 to 522 to the turnpike and head into the base the back way.
 
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