Gazing into a crystal ball.........

[DDoyle]

I thought about writing this up for one of the mags - but decided here may be a better, or at least more timely, place to "publish" this missive. It may piss some off - that is not the intent. Rather, this is merely food for thought.

I am fortunate in that my work and my hobby are somewhat intertwined. In the course of a week I spend a GREAT deal of time looking at photos and documents, talking with collectors and dealers, etc. And of course there is the compiling of information from all these (and other) sources.

I talk with WWII Jeep collectors, CCKW collectors, tank collectors, motorcycle collectors - and also try to follow the prices these things change hands at - and how quickly they sell.

While amassing material for my M35 books I have taken to looking at the online photos of every deuce listed on the GL site, and noting the details visible in the photos. So, my comments below pertain to the deuce, although they just as easily could be applied to five tons.

I've browsed the many photos that Memphis Equipment has taken in their 60 years of existance - photos showing row after row of CCKW that have been refitted with various commercial beds, frames that that have been lengthened or shortened, acres of M135s with similar conversions, or transmission transplants. Or huge piles of parts, the results of parting out these once-common vehicles.

Other dealers chewed through thousands of surplus Jeeps in the same manner - some of our members here have proudly dragged home batter, rusted remains of a MB or GPW and labored to return the vehicle to an "as delivered" state. Cursing the guy who threw away those hard to work on dangerous combat rims, replacing them with commercial rims.

Want to see a military vehicle that brings top dollar - take a look at a GPW with original body and matching frame/engine numbers. Or a CCKW with original wooden cargo bed and original engine.

While once both these vehicles were common - so common they were used up by "improving" them with V-6 engines in the Jeeps and steel grain beds on the CCKWs - today they are the vehicles that make collector's hearts race - and cause them to dig deep in their pockets when one comes on the market.

Today I am going through the GL auctions, and I notice a handful of 1972-built trucks with LD-465 engines and sprag transfer cases. These trucks very probably have their factory installed engines - true survivors that have escaped countless government rebuild programs and numerous opprotunities for "improvements".

How many of these already scarce originals will make it another ten years. Will they all be parted out, souped up, bobbed, turboed?

Today, the M35A2 is as common as the proverbial pig's tracks - but '09 is their last year in GI service. My research to date indicates that total G-742 production was in the 200,000 range, over an almost 40 year period. That shoud be plenty forever - no need to save any of them as historic artifacts, right? GMC CCKW production was a staggering 3/4 of a million in a five year period. When is the last time you saw a nice original CCKW cargo - or dump, or water purification truck?

We look at 1946-47 photos of these trucks being modified, used commercially or scrapped and say "why didn't they save some?" - then we log onto the internet, and ask "how can I add turbo, lockouts and airshift to my sprag-equipped LD-powered M35A2 before I bob it?

And our children or grandchildren will find the remains of such an "improved" truck in a fence row or barn and say "I wonder if I can restore this, darn shame someone did this to it."

Something to think about.....

Regards,
David

 

[TaylorTradingCo]

Well spoken

I know exactly what you mean. I got into gun collecting years ago when I found some WWII S&W 38 revolvers were being surplused for $80 each. At the time they flooded the market and you couldn't hardly give one away, but now they go for the hundreds of dollars they should as true collectors items. I wish I could have afforded to have bought them all and just sit on them for 20 years, but like everyone else I needed the money and turned them for a quick trick. I only have one left of the dozens I had.

I am sure other olders members can relate other pieces and numbers about what once was available.

I just recently found out that these Deuces were becoming available through GL and felt the same way. My wife thinks I am a bit crazy as I have already bought 15 in the past few months. I just keep telling her how ridiculously cheap these things are. I haven't met a man yet who saw it and didn't want one. I am sure they are out there, but not in the small circles that I run in.

My real problem is that just like with the guns I want to keep them all. At one time I had over a dozen of three different types of guns. I never saw an 870 that I didn't want. At first I wanted to keep one Deuce, then two. I just bought a Reo I really like and I want to bob one so now I am up to keeping four, for now.

Right now these trucks are flooding the market and that is a good thing. I think the best thing to do is buy as many as you can, sell a few to make a little money, and keep as many as you can afford to. 20 years from now they will be worth twice as much as they are now.

BTW - after seeing some recent posts I now have to have a 10ton. Let me know if you see any.

Derek Taylor

 

[oilcan]

Good post. And it applies to all kinds of stuff besides MV's.

I'm not saying I subscribe to it 100%, but it is something to think about.

 

[TheBuggyman]

I agree with oilcan. I still and always will salivate over an old original but I do not have the patience to restore one. On the other hand I do enjoy modifying my trucks while trying to keep the original military "look". I like to think of mine as the way the Uncle Sam would have done it.

Good thought David, keep 'em coming!

 

[ida34]

I thought about this a few years ago at Thunder Over Michigan. I talked to a guy with a WWII jeep that he had from the time he bought it surplus from the military. He had the foresight to keep it original. This is what prompted me to buy the deuce. I figured getting the thing in good shape while still cheap from the army was the way to go. I hope I never have to sell it and when I am retired I hope to be one of the few with a motorpool restored deuce. That being said I do not fault people for bobbing or what ever. They bought it and they can do what they want. I just wish bubba had taken it a little easier on my M151.

On another note, originality is one reason I will not change to super singles or radials. Yes I would like the better ride and traction but the 9s dualed out is the way most came and the way mine was in the military so I will stay with the stock tires and wheel combination.

 

[maddawg308]

I agree to a point, as well. Any little bit we save is good, but the mods do destroy the authenticity of the vehicles as they served. The mods we do help us improve, sometimes, the use-ability of our vehicle to our unique needs. I guess it boils down to the fact that they are our trucks, and we can use them as is, or change them. Some of them will survive the test of time intact, others will be parts, a reflection of its former self.

In the grand sense of things, a thousand years from now, none of them will exist, so it really doesn't matter when you look at it that way.

 

[OD_Coyote]

I agree that someday the M35 will be a sought after collectable, but I don't see why bolt-on mods that are easily reversed would be detrimental for a deuce or any other MV. I have lockouts on my MB and my M35 and I think they reduce some of the wear and tear encountered during operation.

 

[colomil]

I tend to agree with the idea of keeping some of these trucks original, but I believe in utility before beauty (see my m1009). I have a neighbor that has taken this idea to the next level. He has a 160 acre yard full of old cars/trucks/and some MVs. He buys them and lets them sit for 20 or so years and then sells them for some decent $$. He doesn't even allow people to buy the new inventory. He even has a few WWII GMC 4x4 trucks but they are in poor condition.

If a guy with some land in the southwest wanted to make a long term investment, I would suggest he buy up all the M35a2/M800 series and even CUCV trucks he could and prepare them for long term storage (like AMARC in Tucson, AZ does with old aircraft). Let these trucks sit for a generation or two and I bet they would be worth a pile of cash.

Another sad site is when companies buy trucks from GL and send them to the scrapper to cash in on the high price of steel . I have seen this happen with the m105 trailers here locally.

 

[knissen]

I think you have a point there DDoyle - but I also see that the MV hobby has a lot of sides... some like the historic bit of it, some the terrain driving, some the shows, some the modification / mechanical work... and a lot likes it all.
I like to keep my vehicles "as they were in service" - loves to attend shows, loves to restore and drive them.
Just an example - I have a M35A1, with the original LDS427-2 ond horizontal exhaust... how many of the A1s are left for the future to see? (know this is mostly due to Army overhaul/swopping programs)
Keep up the good work everyone

 

[TaylorTradingCo]

Fortunately for us the price of steel has tanked, so I don't think that is happening any more.

Derek Taylor

 

[TaylorTradingCo]

I like to ride both sides of the fence. Of the four that I plan to keep, two will be left completely original, one will be bobbed for playing in the woods and another (M36A2) will be used for work. Come to think of it, I guess three of them will be left alone.

Derek Taylor

 

[bulldog_mack13]

David,
I wouldnt talk to George jr. over at White owl . He told me stories of making DUKW's into "log skidders". Said they had two men chop of DUKW's for years and make them into the skidders.
Really good article , keep them going I enjoy the knowledge !

 

[drgreg]

Supply and demand, for every truck that goes to the crusher, ideally all others become more valuable. The art of collecting requires a quality crystal ball, in two generations M35s may be a real collectable or may be illeagal to own/drive. If I had a time machine to go back to the 40s or 50s, I would probably not bring back CCKWs, Maybe some P-38s, or P-51s. That being said, I am enjoying my trucks in the here and now.

 

[m16ty]

I do see your point and hindsight's 20/20 but the M35s will end up just like the WWII stuff (very few in original form). As time goes on and surplus parts run out it's going to be harder and more expensive to keep these trucks original when something needs replaced.

I have a completly stock M715 with a weak engine. I could rebuild the oringinal engine but parts for the engine cost a fortune (if you can find them) and the engine never was that good when it was new. Because of money and reliablity I'm looking at other options.

I like to keep my trucks mostly stock but I have dreams at night of adding a dump to the duece also so I can use the truck more. I never was much of a strict purist but I do like to see the trucks in their original form.

 

[emr]

As for M35;s being just like CCKW's in time ?, well its a different era and a different amount of trucks used for different purposes, Today , Mil surplus HAS a following of keeping it correct, thank fully the ww2 reenactors are the best thing for ww2 stuff, since in my opinion as cool as they are, they are not the most driver friendly things in the world, and i personally do believe in keeping them/all MV's for what most collectors believe they are , Histyory on wheels,, pick an era and support it with your MV, keep it as origanal as possible, bolt on comforts are cool for those who like em, I prefer my trucks as rough as possible,My 925 has a heater, the way i think is I would never use it, its just not me, for me the thrill is like the Nov11th Vets parade, in sub temps, top off windshield down driveing into NYC, sure my lips pealed for a week or 2, but thats whats its about, to me. there will be many many more M series true to there history than any vehicle before and after , they are the ones that are lucky enough to be in the heart of all that we do, and they are also a transiton truck from the past to the future, M series are amazing and we are lucky to be the guys putting them to good use, Who could have ever believed in the design of these trucks after there life expency ,they would do so much more than just pull logs; etc. they are true driving museums carring on the traditions of our Armed forces the best the world has ever seen , Bringing a new sense of Patriotism to those who see them , and the increadable feeling to get the chance to either carry vets in a parade or inspire those to serve in the future,Most Kids thats see your REAL Military vehicle will remember it for life, many of us sure did, and now own them, whew, what a hobby...Randy

 

[CARNAC]

Excellent article. Doesn't just go for the soft skin stuff either. Think of the hundreds of 113's that are gone. A leap into a different realm but this sucks also:

http://www.uboat.net/fates/deadlight.htm

I was surprised when I saw today that there were only 50 or so M8 armored cars in the US. The loss of this heritage is very troubling. Unfortunately I don't see the politicians helping us out in anyway and will most likely continue to (either conciously or unconciously) fight us.

Why are we still destroying 12 series radios when the technology is 40+ years old and they would be of no benefit to terrorists? Why are we not becoming more determined to fight for these items to be released for civilian sales to us...the collector?

 

[Recovry4x4]

It's interesting that some of these trucks have excaped without getting the depot overhaul. While it's cool to preserve them as they were originally, is a military vehicle not correct if it was modded by the military? Just as depots upgrade trucks, I tend to upgrade mine in the same fashion. I don't much care for permanent mods but thinkgs that bolt in are OK. Not a single truck I own has PS. I think my biggest sin thus far was a multifuel repowe of my M108. If the gov't had kept it a while longer, there is a good chance that they would have repowered it anyway.

 

[emmado22]

I keep all my MV's and trailers "as they were" within reason. I only do "motorpool" mods, stuff that I saw done in my motorpool when I was in the Army. 99% of it can be reversed if need be. My M998 is almost an exact replica of the one I had as a Platoon Leader.. Other than the serial # and build date, they are almost twins. I did add a military issue 10.5K winch, which did not exist back at the time in the Army to mine.... Everything else is stock or upgraded with Army authorized mods.. Like the new style mirrors, high backed seats, etc.

The duece is almost as it was when it left the USAF.. I added a winch (totally removable if needed) and a VRC radio system. The winch I added because I have a my own personal "beliefs" that every modern MV out there should have a winch. I "learned" that the hard way by being in the field several times with a mired truck and of course, the others trucks in the convoy didnt have a winch, but the others we left back in the motorpool always seemed to, but werent much help miles away... The radio set, I had a few cargo trucks in my PLT with them, so in my mind thats kinda OK...

My MB Jeep, I added a correct era radio, and also, a capstan winch.. Is the winch period correct for a 1945 MB, not really.. The Jeep police would write me a "not authentic for the time frame" ticket, but in the end, it's me that owns it, and enjoys it..

So, I guess my philosphy is additions that were possible, that can be removed if needed..

 

[emr]

I do think mods are cool also, and don't mind gussying up any of these rides, with anything that could go on, as for a correct truck, that would be one with duct tape holding things on, at least there are alot like that here at the Dover Armory, ...It sure is neat to see all the things guys do at the shows, some are so darn good at correct stuff, and some have just made theres so awesome its just very very cool, I do like showroom condition, and combat ready condition , and motor pool ready condition, and mods too......but as for keeping history alive, its nice to see so many wanting to...Randy

 

[Blythewoodjoe]

I have often thought about what I would have done if I had money just 10 years ago. In the 80's I could have bought a tank. The M35's are a unique bunch. You can find old gassers at GSA auctions right next to a multi-fuel. Problem is most of us don't have the money to sit on any of this stuff. Modifications change the vehicle for sure, but what of driving it. I have noticed we drive our vehicles a lot and that means we are wearing them out. I for one enjoy wearing them out. That's why I usually buy stuff. I don't own a gun that I don't shoot. I guess I'm not a collector of anything. I'm a user. I do hope some of you guys keep you trucks parked and in good original order, but I think most will not. People don't usually drive a 67 camero anywhere they want, expecially a mint one, but we sure drive our 67 deuces any where. We don't mind getting them muddy or scratched up. We enjoy the hail out of them. I don't think any other vehicle on earth has a following quite like them. In the end I think that counts for a lot. Having said that, I like your observations David.

Joe Trapp