Gen1 Light and Small Fire

[iteration zero]

Guys,

I need some help in a bad way but I don't have a lot of time to research the issue myself so I'm looking for some suggestions. Doghead mod was installed by previous owner.

What Happened:
Friday - I drove the truck to work. Halfway there (7mi) I shut the defroster off and then the GEN1 light came on, for the first time, and stayed on the rest of the way there. The light flickered in tempo when the blinker was used. At lunch the truck started up normally but still the GEN1 light was on. At the end of the day the truck started normally but the GEN1 light immediately came on again. During this whole time the voltmeter read exactly where it should.

Saturday - I went to start it but it cranked but didn't start. Held the button for a second count of 5s and tried to start it. Nothing. Typically box body dead battery symptoms. Then I smelled electric burning and saw smoke. I turned the truck off and pulled the key as I was running to the garage to get my toolbox. The truck again tried starting on its own. I finally got the hood up and the batteries disconnected.

Today - trying to find the cause of the problem. The blower motor still worked on Friday even after the GEN1 light came on. The wipers have always moved slow in which I think there is a ground problem in the switch inside the column somewhere. Looking for advice on where to start because I need the truck running by the 10th.

Regards,
i0

 

[Barrman]

Just for clarification. After you smelled smoke, you pulled the keys and only then did the starter start to run without you telling it to? When did the starter stop?

Have you done the Doghead relay mod?

I asked all of that because I think you have two or more separate issues. Drivers side alternator voltage regulator, stuck starter relay, burned fusable links in the starter wiring and then whatever it was fuel or glow plug that kept the engine from starting on the first instant the last time.

 

[iteration zero]

Doghead mod was installed by the previous owner.

The truck tried to start after keys were set to off, removed, and I was out of the truck. It cranked for about 10s then stopped. After that happened I was able to get the batteries disconnected.

 

[dougco1]

Doghead mod or not, As I have already concluded; if you have weak or bad batteries it will cause all sorts of issues with the electrical system. sounds as if you have to tend to the charging system/batteries first then see what damage you have with the starting system.

 

[cucvrus]

The DOGHEAD mod is NOT the silver bullet cure all to starter woes. That gives a false sense of security to people that think my starter issues are cured because I done this modification. I have 15+ CUCV's under my care for over 20 years. Did I have a few starter run off? Yes I would be a liar if I said NO. And every time it was a situation when the batteries were low and the truck was starting hard. I equate this mod the same as wearing a seat belt and a helmet. It is not a guarantee of run off or safety. I have had Ford's do it and newer Chevy plow trucks do it. Ford basically has the same solenoid as OEM from Ford that the DOGHEAD has as the fix all. They can and do stick. I know this has been beat to death. But I notice that some one mentions they bought a CUCV. And the first thing that gets mentioned is DOGHEAD relay. If this truck has that relay modification then what is causing the problem he is having? It could be several things. I am NOT going to debate and argue my theory or madness. But if it worked for over 30 years and it failed. it outlasted its life and needs a $10. replacement part. Not a hacked up wiring harness put in under a dash in a negative steel surrounded area. Could all these trucks be wrong? Or am I the luckiest guy on the planet with CUCV's? I doubt it. After being in service for 20 years after I sold it. I found this one in the junk yard and still has the OEM relay still bolted in place. Maybe I am lucky. But good maintenance and a good running, properly starting truck with good load tested batteries will make a world of difference. 20 years of use on this old M1009 and the glow plugs and everything but the batteries are the same ones that were in it when I sold it in 1996. Please don't argue my point. I have no defense but experience. If it were the 100% fix/cure all I would be all over it in a heart beat. And I seen a very nice plug in relay that does the same thing as the OEM without the hack factor of cutting the harness.Good Luck and have a great day. Remeber the starter shim and engagement can cause this issue also.

 

[iteration zero]

I seen a very nice plug in relay that does the same thing as the OEM without the hack factor of cutting the harness.Good Luck and have a great day. Remeber the starter shim and engagement can cause this issue also.

I have spent some time reading the service manual and it seems like there was a feedback correction in place from the OEM for afterglow and runoff. So I would like to see the schematic for this mod because it seems like its removing an automated control and replacing it with a manual control which can still fail to cucvrus's point. I am a noob when it comes to these trucks but given what I saw my instinct tells me to check the wiring to the glow plugs and the plugs themselves because they may be fried. I'm going to check the batteries and alternators tonight. I read about the starter shim as well. I've always heard a 'whine' after the truck started and I revv'd the engine a bit. It sounded like belt squeal that I've heard so many times before in my numerous gasser box bodies. But the manual says the starter will 'whine' because the tooth clearance is off by 1mm. So I wonder if their starter whine and my belt squeal sound similar.

 

[porkysplace]

View attachment 687959The DOGHEAD mod is NOT the silver bullet cure all to starter woes. That gives a false sense of security to people that think my starter issues are cured because I done this modification. I have 15+ CUCV's under my care for over 20 years. Did I have a few starter run off? Yes I would be a liar if I said NO. And every time it was a situation when the batteries were low and the truck was starting hard. I equate this mod the same as wearing a seat belt and a helmet. It is not a guarantee of run off or safety. I have had Ford's do it and newer Chevy plow trucks do it. Ford basically has the same solenoid as OEM from Ford that the DOGHEAD has as the fix all. They can and do stick. I know this has been beat to death. But I notice that some one mentions they bought a CUCV. And the first thing that gets mentioned is DOGHEAD relay. If this truck has that relay modification then what is causing the problem he is having? It could be several things. I am NOT going to debate and argue my theory or madness. But if it worked for over 30 years and it failed. it outlasted its life and needs a $10. replacement part. Not a hacked up wiring harness put in under a dash in a negative steel surrounded area. View attachment 687954View attachment 687956View attachment 687955Could all these trucks be wrong? Or am I the luckiest guy on the planet with CUCV's? I doubt it. After being in service for 20 years after I sold it. I found this one in the junk yard and still has the OEM relay still bolted in place. View attachment 687958Maybe I am lucky. But good maintenance and a good running, properly starting truck with good load tested batteries will make a world of difference. View attachment 68795720 years of use on this old M1009 and the glow plugs and everything but the batteries are the same ones that were in it when I sold it in 1996. Please don't argue my point. I have no defense but experience. If it were the 100% fix/cure all I would be all over it in a heart beat. And I seen a very nice plug in relay that does the same thing as the OEM without the hack factor of cutting the harness.Good Luck and have a great day. Remeber the starter shim and engagement can cause this issue also.

So what is the part number for this magic plug and play relay ?
Or are you just going to criticize someone else's solution without any solution you claim to have ?

 

[iteration zero]

I think its post #30 here https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?76836-Doghead-Starter-Relay-Mod-Question/page3

It's a homebrew.

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

So what is the part number for this magic plug and play relay ?
Or are you just going to criticize someone else's solution without any solution you claim to have ?

I think Rick's point is that just because the Doghead mod is done, does NOT mean that all starting problems are automatically and forever solved. Basic troubleshooting still has to be done.

Since the PO did the mod, we have to consider that it may have been done incorrectly. He may have used an El Cheapo relay. It may have a good brand but that one is just a bad relay. It happens.

Since a starter ran by itself, it's time to troubleshoot the starter circuit, and not ignore one part of it because someone waved the magic Doghead mod wand.

Start from scratch and do the basics.

 

[cucvrus]

I think its post #30 here https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?76836-Doghead-Starter-Relay-Mod-Question/page3

It's a homebrew.

I would not call it a home brew. It works well and save cutting the harness. The same man that makes the new circuit cards make st the relay. it works. I have tested it in 2 trucks. I like the plug and play design. It works well. Thank you and have a great day. No criticism here. Just don't like it shoved out there for every starter problem that come up. It is not 100% starter problem solver. OK enough? I don't have any scientific proof and would like to just let it at that. 20+ years and still going.

 

[porkysplace]

I think its post #30 here https://www.steelsoldiers.com/showthread.php?76836-Doghead-Starter-Relay-Mod-Question/page3

It's a homebrew.

It doesn't look like that one is fail proof either since he posted he carries a spare in the glove box.

 

[cucvrus]

I carry many spare parts when I have room. Especially if they are small parts and I know I could help someone else or myself out with them. I know I have 3 spare tires already and went wheeling 5 times with out a flat. Last time I was out I had 3 flats. Proves nothing. But glad I had the spare parts and tires when I needed them. I have 2 jacks in my truck. 3 if you count the stock jack and about 5 tow straps and several chains. I don't use them often but they are there if I need them. He is prepared. Nothing is fool proof except a fool with no plan. Having tools is not planning to break down. It is being prepared in the event that you need the tools to help yourself or others. You could wire tie a spare relay under the dash and it would be there when needed. Have a good day. i am not falling into the argue over nothing game here.

 

[iteration zero]

So I found a suspicious fusible link on the top electrical rail. I don't know if it failed or the PO "fixed" it.

Here is fusible link on the wiper motor I think has failed or it's failing.

Here is a frame ground from 2nd battery that is obviously shot.

 

[cucvrus]

The bolt together cable ends are NOT the best. Get a new set made that are crimped or soldered to get her. Clean the ground points. That small ground off the front battery goes to the radiator core support and then jumps to the right frame rail. I added a few extra grounds and it has helped improve the grounds and take some strain off of the small ground wires. Never hurts to add a few extra grounds. The capacitors on the wiper motor are not needed. they can be unplugged and eliminated. They were for the radio equipment. Not sure of the absolutely correct name but NOT NEEDED fits them well. If the wipers work they are fine. Check that green wire that they spliced in it looks like house wiring. You want fusible link in that spot. It may be fusible link . I am not sure by looking at it. Good Luck and have a great day. Questions are no problem. i will try to help from afar.

 

[iteration zero]

The bolt together cable ends are NOT the best. Get a new set made that are crimped or soldered to get her. Clean the ground points. That small ground off the front battery goes to the radiator core support and then jumps to the right frame rail. I added a few extra grounds and it has helped improve the grounds and take some strain off of the small ground wires. Never hurts to add a few extra grounds. The capacitors on the wiper motor are not needed. they can be unplugged and eliminated. They were for the radio equipment. Not sure of the absolutely correct name but NOT NEEDED fits them well. If the wipers work they are fine. Check that green wire that they spliced in it looks like house wiring. You want fusible link in that spot. It may be fusible link . I am not sure by looking at it. Good Luck and have a great day. Questions are no problem. i will try to help from afar.

The wipers have never worked well. They run slower than molasses in January or not at all. This is the area I noticed the whisps of black smoke coming from when I was in the cab trying to start the truck originally.

As for the other issues I'm attaching another photo that will out line my questions better.

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

It doesn't look like that one is fail proof either since he posted he carries a spare in the glove box.

There is no "fail proof" here in the real world, so let's get back to basic troubleshooting.


Iteration zero:

To your numbered questions (excellent approach! )

1. It's probably a fusible link. Looks like one. A fusible link is just a length of a special wire that melts predictably. The connectors (the fat part) are not the fusible link; they are just connectors to join the special fusible wire to the regular wire. Butt connectors can be used, too.
2. Yep. Might be bad, though. They don't always look it. Pull on them to see if they give. They should just feel like a solid wire. If they give, they may be burned under the insulation.
3. Nope. Butt connector. The PO replaced a fusible link. Nothing wrong with using a butt connector, but it's poorly done. Lousy crimp.
4. Dunno, but I'd get it out of there, NOW.

As to the battery cables, take a close look at the military style terminals. I get them from Crimp Supply on Amazon. Good stuff.

Mate those up to some custom cables from BestBoatWire.com, and you have some good stuff. I order them with the clear heat shrink so I can always see what's going on under there.

Won't hurt to go through and clean up connections and grounds. Clean to shiny metal, then apply some silicone dielectric grease to retard corrosion. Some people like to use something like NoAlox instead, thinking it's conductive. It's not, but it's fine to use. It's no better than dielectric grease, though, and it's messier. But either works fine.

(Oh, and for those of you who are foaming at the mouth about "conductive grease", read this. I looked up the ingredients some time back. The base material of "conductive" grease has exactly the same electrical properties as dielectric grease. The powdered zinc in the stuff is to prevent corrosion in aluminum conductors. It does not make the grease conductive.)

 

[iteration zero]

Status Update:

1) Both batteries removed and benchtested - SAT
2) GEN1 removed and benchtested - UNSAT, completely dead
3) GEN2 removed and benchtested - SAT, some bearing noise, a little weak but charges within parameters

Both generators were tested and will be rebuilt by Jeff at Allstar in Union Grove, WI. No website for a link but here is the info if you are looking for a reputable shop to rebuild old auto electronics.


Allstar
Jeff @ 414 427 7991
24023 Burmeister Rd, Union Grove, WI 53182

 

[iteration zero]

Status Update:

4) Removed under-column dash plate and inspected - SAT, no wires loose or welded
5) Checked continuity on all fusible links - SAT
6) Check continuity on all glow plugs - SAT
7) Installed GEN1 - SAT
Installed GEN2 - SAT
9) Installed both batteries - UNSAT, followed proper termination procedure until last connection heavy sparking noted (more than my gasser 12V box body experience has ever shown) and aborted.

Disclaimer: The following was preformed against my better judgement and I should've followed OOPS (Out of Process? STOP)

10) Performed an alternate connection procedure - UNSAT, Small arc flash to NEG of 24V battery noted. This resulted in all fusible links burning thru and possible damage to the glow plug relay before power disconnect could be completed.

There is a short to ground somewhere that is shunting all that power to where it doesn't belong. Where should I be looking? I don't want to have to go thru the entire truck's wiring to find this.

Based on my observations thru step 10 I know I need to do the following:

A) Buy/fabricate new fusible links and install.
B) Buy and install new glow plug relay. How do you benchtest the in-service one?
C) Buy and install new starter relay. How do you benchtest the in-service one?
D) Remove manual glow plug button installed by PO. How do I return to stock the glow plug control circuitry, there is no more "wait" light installed?
E) Benchtest starter motor. What is the procedure for this?

Is this plan a reasonable start or am I heading in the wrong direction? Are there other obvious things I need to check before reconnecting the batteries as a result of step 10?

 

[MarcusOReallyus]

Sounds like a good plan. The wiring on the alts is a bit of a pain on my truck. The ring terminals are a very sloppy fit and they provide no help in making sure you have the correct wire on the correct terminal. (One of these days I'll change them out for some terminals that fit correctly.) After getting the same fireworks show you describe, I carefully traced mine and labeled them.

Check the grounding on your alts. If you had one rebuilt, chances are it's not properly isolated. You should have no continuity between the case and the grounding stud.


On your fusible links, take those continuity tests with a grain of salt. You can have continuity on a meter but a link that won't carry any appreciable current.

 

[iteration zero]

Gentlemen,

I know it's been long time since I touched this thread and the truck. A new baby does that. I finally buckled and realized that I am NOT going to get the time to fix this myself. I towed in to my local mechanic who had no experience working on CUCVs. Here's the AAR:

1) I preformed the Doghead Starter Relay Mod
2) I disassembled the steering column and installed a new wiper switch (off topic)

Work Completed by Mechanic

3) Replaced all fusible links and burned wiring.
4) Completed steering column reinstall
5) Removed in-service Glow Plug (GP) terminals and replaced with standard width civvy terminals
6) Installed civvy 60G GPs
Installed batteries - UNSAT - Sparking noticed during attempted reinstall (same as original condition)
9) Investigation revealed a ground short to the casing of GEN2
10) Repaired wiring insulation
11) Completed battery reinstall without issue
12) Fixed ground issue with manual GP push button preformed by previous owner (PO)
13) Attempted vehicle start - UNSAT- Starter spinning but not engaging, assumed non-functioning solenoid
14) Removed starter - Starter had distinct Ozone smell (almost a year after run-on condition) and parts rattling in housing
15) Preformed 12V conversion per ROS Common Equipment procedure found at: http://www.roscommonequipmentcenter.com/nn10.pdf
16) Installed on-hand 12V gear reduction starter
17) Vehicle start test - SAT- for mechanic only, vehicle wouldn't start later
1 Start condition investigation using a test light showed GPs functioning, GP relay had intermittent issues
19) New GP relay installed
20) Vehicle start condition completed - SAT

Mechanic Charges: $800 - Towing and 6hrs of labor.

Drove it to work this morning. It's running good. Need a wiper motor now and working on a 4in lift to install HMMV wheels and tires.

Thank's for the help guys. It's good to know our diagnostic procedure and skills are good because the mechanic just followed our procedure and it started. It's good to know I could've done this myself and saved the $800 but never had the time. Time to show the wife the cost of her schedule.