Get rid of that biodiesel, for new MV buys

[3dAngus]

I met a friend who I haven't seen in years early this morning and we discussed the M series MVs. He is a diesel mechanic at Robins, and a really good one. He avoids the M series due to all the problems with the fuel systems. In the next bay, a friend of his works the M series deuce and 5 tons and has more issues with fuel than anything else. This is the essense of what he says. I've added some of my own comments.

About five years ago or so, the govt. went to biodiesel, a 20% mix by mandate. The biodiesel, when mixed with oxygen, turns to sludge, so a half filled tank with air in it quickly becomes a problem with sludge buildup. The steel fuel tanks are the worse, and the sludge turns red. Aluminum tanks are next with a yellow sludge building. Plastic tanks are the best. The type of metal creates a problem with this all it's own.

If you break open a fuel line and don't seal it the same day, within 24 hours the lines will clog up with this biodiesel in it. The govt. is spending millions in repair work due to it, but will not change due to the assistance with helping the refineries gearing up toward production of it. Private industry needs to get a payoff for the huge mulit billion dollar investment made in the change for the Countries self reliance of fuels, in case of National Emergencies. Anyway, if you purchase a new MV, first thing you need to do is burn off all the fuel you can, and clean out the tanks of sludge.

Paint thinner will work. If you break a fuel liine for maintenance, they shoot some paint thinner through the lines and out comes a big poop if the lines were left open overnight, from the oxygen mixing with it. You need to get all the sludge out of the tanks, and clean the fuel lines if your filters indicate a problem with red or yellow sludge buildup. The mechanics there have a long wand they stick down in the tank, and rake it out the exit hole first. Then they clean out the residue with paint thinner. There are other products in other threads that work too, which will help dissolve the sludge.

Be careful not to open your fuel injector lines or filters and leave them open for 24 hours. The maintenance need be started and completed and capped all in the same day. Once you get it all cleaned up, run a tank of clean diesel through it. You should then be ready to change out filters and flush the injector lines if necessary.

I'll never leave a half tank of fuel in the tanks anymore, but top them off to reduce chances of moisture buildup, or air in the tanks causing unnecessary sludge buildup. Lessons learned for the day.

 

[doghead]

Sounds like that location is buying bio diesel made from animal fat.

There is a big difference when it's made from vegetable matter.

I would not over react or take everything they said, as absolute fact(in all cases).

fwiw, I am not pro bio diesel.

 

[swbradley1]

Good point DH. My Brother runs a truckload of BD through everything he has and has experienced zero problems. I suspect that you are correct, his is all from plant oils and not animal fat.

What surprised me about Dell's post was that it is exactly the opposite of what my Brother tells me. The BD cleans everything out so much and makes the tanks and lines spotless to the point where he when he starts running it he has to change the filters two or three times to get everything out. After that the BD keeps it clean.

 

[dozer1]

Everyone is entitled to their opinion (like the guy that works in the bay next to your friend) and anybody can run whatever fuel they want for all I care. I have to offer another theory as to what happened, based on a well known property of biodiesel.
1. Biodiesel acts as a very effective solvent in a fuel system.
2. M series trucks are old vehicles that have alot of crap in their fuel systems which stays there until a solvent is introduced.
3. The 20% military biodiesel mandate which started around '05 from what I read here Biodiesel Mandate for Navy and Marine Facilities | Renewable Energy News Article is a large percentage of biodiesel to jump right into from probably 0%.

The theory then is, the solvent rich fuel breaks the crap loose and raises heck with filters and pumps, probably fuel systems as a whole in the old M series trucks. Newer vehicles would be affected less, because they haven't been around long enough to have crap-sludge form in their tanks yet.

Even 5% biodiesel broke stuff loose here in Mn. when it was first mandated. A few filter changes later and the issue stops, because the stuff is out of the fuel.

Again, burn what you want, when you want to burn it. Just burn something

 

[swbradley1]

And that holds true for my Brother's results.

 

[3dAngus]

From what he says, the bio diesel here is made from corn and peanuts.
He works on these things 8 hours a day for a living, and reports the govt M series did not have this exacting problem before the biodiesel contracts.

 

[swbradley1]

I can check but the BD my Brother uses is made from Soybeans. Yes, I just called and his is 30% Soy.

 

[porkysplace]

From what he says, the bio diesel here is made from corn and peanuts.
He works on these things 8 hours a day for a living, and reports the govt M series did not have this exacting problem before the biodiesel contracts.

So has the government done a study on this ? or is it 1 mechanics opinion ?
Most studies show bio-diesel as a solvent . Ask wreckerman how laquer thinner affects the fuel system .

Have they installed new tanks lines ,filters and housings and pumps to determine it is the bio-diesel chemically reacting to oxygen and not crud in the system.

Have they pressurizes a half-full tank with CO2 to remove oxygen to see if it prevents the change in the fuel ?

 

[ca1517]

I have had similar issues with biodiesel. The two biggest problems I have found are metal fuel tanks, and longer term storage. I have found if you burn the biodiesel in a timely fashion, such as a pickup truck, where you are circulating it on a regular basis, you have very few, if any problems. If the biodiesel sits in a metal fuel tank such as a M35, you are going to have a red, crusty growth on the inside of the tank, which then forms a sludge on the walls, and floor of the tank, which leads to fuel filter issues, and eventually to a clogged supply line. Your experiences may vary, just my personal observations.

 

[3dAngus]

ca1517,
I think you hit the nail on the head, where perhaps I did not spell it out perfectly. My original post was for new MV purchases, where biodiesel has sat in a half filled tank for a prolonged period of time. They report the newer vehicles, or the vehicles which are regularly run, do not exibit this problem. Tests indicate it has favorable cleaning properties in vehicles run regularly.

The problem is consistant with vehicles that are not used on a regular basis, which is the case for all MVs purchased from GL. Thus, as the title indicates, it applies to all new purchasers of MVs. Reportedly, the newer series vehicles out, busses and fire trucks, which are run regularly, exibit no such properties as they are driven on a regular basis, almost daily. Fuel tanks are topped off upon return to the motor pool to eliminate air and moisture collection in the tank, as well as keeping them in "readiness" condition.

 

[mikew]

A friend of mine purchased two deuces from Ft. Sill about a year ago.

Both truck's tanks were almost full but had a couple gallons of the stickiest reddish/brown sludge I'd ever seen in the bottom of them. We drained the tanks and the only thing that would dissolve the remaining sludge that was stuck to the tank, and we tried lots of different solvents, was paint stripper.

Now I know what the sludge was!

 

[JasonS]

Copper (used for fuel lines) is known to be incompatible with biodiesel:


This one is from NREL and should be trustworthy:
www.nrel.gov/vehiclesandfuels/pdfs/43672.pdf

Biodiesel will degrade and form high sediment levels if contacted for long periods by copper or copper containing metals

Ask Ben - Biodiesel Basics

Use of tanks or lines made of brass, bronze, copper, lead, tin or zinc may cause high sediment formation and promote filter clogging. They are not recommended with B100, or for that matter generic heating oil as well. This is why additive companies are including metal deactivators in premium heating oil packages to tie up the yellow metals so as not to accelerate corrosive act ivies within the storage tanks which the fuel is stored.

Straight vegetable oil as diesel fuel: Journey to Forever

Copper and SVO[FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times]: "I'm not so worried about the copper but what the copper does to the fuel. Did you ever check what happened to your fuel properties like oxidation stability and acid value? A lot of research has been done in Germany on VO (and biodiesel) fuel properties, and who I consider as the leading experts clearly warn against using copper in connection with VO because of the catalytic effect it has on the VO. The laboratory ASG Analytik-Service (http://www.asg-analytik.de), who were involved in the research leading to the "Rape Seed Oil Fuel Standard", says that just a few PPM of copper in VO will change the oxidation stability... [In SVO systems] with a catalytic metal, I think you have the best conditions and environment for decomposition of the VO, and the effects it has on the fuel properties again have an impact on the engine performance, engine conditions (lifetime) and emissions composition." -- [/FONT][FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Geneva,Swiss,SunSans-Regular]Niels Ansø[/FONT][FONT=Times New Roman,Georgia,Times], Folkecenter, Denmark[/FONT]

Biodiesel Magazine | biodieselmagazine.com

Metals are known to catalyze oxidation and polymerization reactions of hydrocarbons. Heavy metals promote autooxidation. 2 Transition metals, such as copper or iron, may be present if corrosion occurs in the manufacturing process, and they could act as a Lewis acid to catalyze polymerization of polyunsaturated hydrocarbon molecules found in the B100 or biodiesel blends. Fungible diesels include cracked stocks light-cycle oil, which may contain metals and high levels of olefins. These cracked stocks, when combined with metals from B100, may decrease stability of the final biodiesel blends. Alkali metals can form sediments and cause injector failures.4 Furthermore, alkali metals could form soaps and contribute to insolubles or water haze in the diesel blends. Metals have been shown to have a significant effect in the OSI test, and copper-known to cause instability in petroleum-based fuels-has a significant impact, as well.1

Production controls including effective neutralization, washing and water separation can prevent alkali metal in B100. Proper materials of construction for B100 production equipment minimizes corrosion and the subsequent introduction of metals into the biodiesel. Copper alloys should be avoided in B100 process equipment. If metal contamination occurs, metal deactivators can be used to chelate transition metals, and inhibit the catalytic oxidation and polymerization effects of the metals in the biodiesel.

 

[cattlerepairman]

Note the B100 (pure biodiesel) in the article above. I recommend blending biodiesel with straight diesel and this will allow you to avoid these issues, provided your fuel system is serviceable in the first place.
B100 and high percentage blends will loosen crud in the fuel system and after the first few fillups you should have replacement fuel filters handy.

I routinely fill up with B20 and have never had issues, even after sitting all winter.

Biodiesel, even when blended down to only 5 or 10 percent, drastically increases the lubricity of the fuel and the plungers in the IP like that. ULSD is very dry.

 

[m816]

I won two trucks at an auction. Both had issues with algy in the tanks. Laquer thiner would not cut it. We used xylene to clean the fuel systems . These truck sat for years with full tanks. Way before they started to use BD. The sludge was a bear to clean out. Could it be the result of Algy? I want to run BD in the trucks this year because with the projected rise in prices , It may be the diference between going to my commitments or staying home. I hope you brainiacs get this settled so my mind wil be at ease Thanks

 

[JasonS]

B100 and high percentage blends will loosen crud in the fuel system and after the first few fillups you should have replacement fuel filters handy.
.

What I read is that the biofuel reacts with the copper to CREATE the crud.

 

[Amram]

I have read this thread 3 times. Am I correct in assuming that biodiesel is not good for the Multifuel engines? I had planned on making biodiesel in my garage for my future M35a2. I had planned on using used vegatable oil to make it. Is it a go or no go for launch? Also nice forums...just joined a few days ago and have been spending atleast 12-16hrs a day reading thread after thread about the duece.

 

[3dAngus]

Good if you run it, use it, and do it regularly.

Bad if it sits in your vehicles fuel system for six months without use.

The thread was intended for new MV buyers who would go to GL and purchase a MV which likely has been sitting a while. Or, for buyers of MV elsewhere that have not been used on a regular basis. It kinda took a turn suggesting it meant all MVs regardless.

Make your biodiesel, by all means, but be careful how you store it, and what you store it in.
Plastic is better than metal. And when you load it in your deuce, be sure to run it through once a week to purge out the fuel system with new fuel in the lines, as well as recirculate what is in the tank. Some tank cleaner like Seafoam is always good.

 

[M813A1]

All this Bio this and Bio that is nothing more then a money making SCAMS !!!! this Eathonal base gas is crap as well it was tried in the 1970's and failed then as well as now !! It costs more per gallon tomake eathonal and it is less efficency the petroluem base fuels !! There for we have to buy more ethonal fuel to get the same distance for same given distance as gasoline !! heck the main ingreident in ethanoal is WATER. this is just a big money making waste for the producers of the crap Eathonal based fuels . It has cost this economy a great deal of hearm with the rising cost of corn products because farmers are producing grain corn and not food grade corn !!

 

[silverstate55]

I agree about ethanol being crap, but the more I research biodiesel, the more I like it for my Dodge with Cummins motor (the IP is lubricated by the fuel; already replaced one that ULSD killed).

With a little bit of work, the copper fuel lines could be replaced in my Deuce by either steel lines or hydraulic lines with flared fittings...I wouldn't use rubber hose unless I absolutely had to, as they only last about 5 years here in the desert before dry-rotting & leaking everywhere.

Hmmm....

 

[Amram]

If my calculations are correct..using the appleseed setup to make biodiesel from the used vegatble oil I am getting from base, resturaunts, and bars around town, I will be making fuel for 65 cents a gallon. Heck of alot cheaper than 4.25 a gallon which is what it costs up here in seattle for normal diesel. If I can make this fuel for 65 cents a gallon I will probably drive the duece to work everyday instead of my car. Costs me 55 bucks a week to drive my car to work.