Getting an old M725 running again

[zyewdall]

As it says... I've gotten involved in getting an old (1960 are the rumors, could not find any ID other than the very worn M725 and ambulance info plate) M725 ambulance running again. It was converted to a 17 passenger (four rows of seats, no top or box any more) tour jeep a long time ago, and my friend who owns it now remembers it running around on ridiculous "roads" when she was a little kid at camp (she's 26 now). So... probably been about 10 to 15 years since it ran. I've bought other vehicles that haven't ran in 15 years and restored them before, so that part I'm fine with... just never looked under the hood of one of these particular beasts till last saturday morning.

It looks pretty complete aside from the tour jeep conversion -- original 230 straight six engine etc. Missing the starter motor (her uncle says that, and the gas tank going out, was the only reasons why it was parked), and the brake pedal is completely flat. And missing both batteries. But, aside from that and some new seats... it looks ready to run. The first hurdle is to find a new starter motor for it.... any suggestions on where the best source for these is? It's the 24 volt electrical system. The gas tank, on a quick inspection (haven't dropped it yet) seems to be a rotted filler neck, not the actual metal tank, though it does have a few rock impact scars on the tank.

As for the brakes... the brake cylinder goes off to a bunch of vacuum lines, but no reservoir that I could easily see.

I'll post a couple of pics later today -- because I know those are always the first thing everyone wants to see. Bright yellow... so it won't look much like what most of you are probably used to

And, what kind of engine is this? A few people at camp thought that it was a diesel... but it's clearly got spark plugs? Is this a multifuel engine maybe, or are they just remembering wrong? I'll post pics of the engine too.

 

[Barrman]

The M715 and M725 were made from 1967-1969.

The engine is a Kaiser Jeep Tornado 230 OHC.

It is a gas engine and will only run on gasoline. Early Wagoneers and J trucks had the same basic engine. They would be your source for a 12v starter. Vintage Power wagons will be just about your only source for a 24v starter unless you can get the stock one rebuilt.

The fuel tank filler hose is unique to the M725. Memphis Equipment might have one. Otherwise, start looking through John Deere tractor books for something close.

 

[mckeeranger]

I'll post a couple of pics later today -- because I know those are always the first thing everyone wants to see. Bright yellow... so it won't look much like what most of you are probably used to

You'd be surprised, scroll down to the 6th picture on this page:

Jubilee Jeeps - M715, M724, M725, M726

 

[zyewdall]

Sounds like it's not as exotic as I had thought... I was originally told it was probably WWII era Turns out, I already own three vehicles older than it (1954 ford tractor, 1956 Chevy 2 ton flatbed, and 1967 Landrover 109). Still fun though.

The owner (in the driver's seat)

The engine, and one of my helpers

different angles

Gratuitous picture of the scenery around there. It's in Tincup Colorado.

Can you just use a 12 volt starter with the 24 volt system? I know it will work for a while but it seems like it would burn out doing that long term. Can't rebuild the original starter, because it's now missing....

 

[zyewdall]

Hmm... looks like img code is off for this forum, so you have to click on the links to see them.

 

[glcaines]

Gratuitous picture of the scenery around there. It's in Tincup Colorado.

Can you just use a 12 volt starter with the 24 volt system? I know it will work for a while but it seems like it would burn out doing that long term. Can't rebuild the original starter, because it's now missing....

It looks like you are living in God's Country! I would not recommend using a 12-volt starter. I would look for a used starter.

 

[M813rc]

Hmm... looks like img code is off for this forum, so you have to click on the links to see them.

Yes, that is because we like you to post the pictures directly to the site..

Most links go dead, some quicker than others, and eventually you have a great post with no pictures. A lot of good stuff gets lost to us that way.

If you look down in "Other Options" when you are posting, there is a button for "Manage Attachments" that lets you stick the pictures directly into your post.

Cheers

 

[zyewdall]

Ah. All the other forums I'm on specifically prohibit any attachments because they don't want to deal with the bandwidth or storage space. Which yes, leads to posts with all the pictures being dead, a few years later...

 

[zyewdall]

Here's the photos, attached this time

 

[Barrman]

That is a 1968 or newer M715. The 725 didn't have a folding windshield or curved front door openings. The hood mounted air filter came along sometime in mid to late 1968. It could be a 724 or 726, but since those are kind of rare I doubt it.

Look on top of the frame rail behind the passenger rear tire and you will find some stamped numbers. The same numbers are stamped on the front passenger frame rail by the angled brace. That is the serial number that should be on the data plate. Go over to the 715 Zone and look in the VIN data base. It is broken down by number and month of production.

Yes, a 12v starter will work if you use it sparingly.

 

[WillWagner]

We brought a 725 back to life last winter.

 

[zyewdall]

There's one that looks exactly like that across from the fire station in town... apparently it used to be the town ambulance, till they got a new one 10 or 15 years ago, and it hasn't moved since

 

[Wolf.Dose]

O.K., anybody can do what ever he/she wants with its M715 series truck. However, this yellow one is a somewhat interesting private variation.
A little command on serial numbers: as long as the truck did not not go throu depot maintanance the statement with regard the serial number on the mentioned locations and the dash plate are correct. However, after that, there is found a nice mixture, as far as I found out. I know at least one truck, where the dash plate states a diffenent number than the frame number. But it was Army surplus with the number on the dash plate.
Any commendends on that?
Wolf

 

[zyewdall]

Here is what Vintage Power wagons said.....

"the 232cid (civilian) tornado engine was used in many years of Jeeps up till 1988, it was even used in some International Scouts & Travelall and some odder AMC applications. However the Military 230 cid Tornado was ONLY used in the two and a half years of production of the kaiser Jeep M -715 & 725 due to excessive engine failures the US Military canceled the contract. Parts are not interchangeable between the 230 and 232"

They do have 24 volt starters for it, for $495 plus $100 core (and I'm missing the core)... NOS (which are always kind of expensive I've found). Hmm

 

[Chief_919]

Surplus City has rebuilt starters for $195 exchange.

Surplus City Jeep Parts - M-715

Full Size Jeep Parts has it for $280 outright

Starter motor, 24 volt, Kaiser M715

 

[Chief_919]

Here is what Vintage Power wagons said.....

"the 232cid (civilian) tornado engine was used in many years of Jeeps up till 1988, it was even used in some International Scouts & Travelall and some odder AMC applications. However the Military 230 cid Tornado was ONLY used in the two and a half years of production of the kaiser Jeep M -715 & 725 due to excessive engine failures the US Military canceled the contract. Parts are not interchangeable between the 230 and 232"

They do have 24 volt starters for it, for $495 plus $100 core (and I'm missing the core)... NOS (which are always kind of expensive I've found). Hmm

They are not totally correct- the 230 was used in civilian applications in 63 and 64- but it was such a flop they pulled it, and then suckered Uncle Sam into buying them....

 

[zyewdall]

They are not totally correct- the 230 was used in civilian applications in 63 and 64- but it was such a flop they pulled it, and then suckered Uncle Sam into buying them....

OOOFF....

What exactly went wrong with them?

 

[Chief_919]

OOOFF....

What exactly went wrong with them?

Honestly, it wasn't really that bad of an engine, but it was way ahead of its time being an OHC design, and complex to maintain. The market for a Jeep pickups was mostly to farmers who liked to maintain their own stuff, so an overly complex engine for its time wasn't good.

The early ones were prone to oil leaks- and low oil caused cam failures. This was fixed by the time the military got it, but by the time they fixed it the bad reputation was already there for the OHC being weak, when in reality it was just the result of running them withotu enough oil.

In a way it was a lot like the early GM diesels- the very first ones were dogs, and they fixed all that with the 6.2, but by then the reputation for GM diiesels, and diesels in general in passengers cars was already ruined.

 

[Wolf.Dose]

As Chief 919 said, the engines were to early for its time as well as the 5.7 l Diesels. The 6.2 l Diesel (by Detroit Diesel, not GM) was a good engine, however not understood by the user for it did feel with the axcel like a gas engine. And the injection pump was not like a Diesel injection pump, anyway of relatively simple design and reliability.
Back to the 230 Tornado engine: The main problem was the low inertia weight of the flywheel for the relatively heavy vehicles. And an other thing that brought the reputation of this engine to bad scores: These trucks were mainly standing in Depots. And some idiots selected one of them and raced them in the first gear arround the place and put them back in place then. No engine survives that on longer term bases.
The other point is that the manufacturing quality was generally very poor.
On my truck the frame welds were for approximately (I newer measuered that excactly) 2 meters (8 1/2 feet) out of place. I rewelded them in 1981 to the propper location.
So the M715, basically a good designe (and better than the Hummer), very soon had a bad reputation.
The sucsessor, the M880 series was not realy better than the M715 series, however, the GI were used to that designe and therefor did not claim about that.
Wolf
A friend of mine runs a M715 with the original engine since almost 30 years with no problems, however with German care.

 

[zyewdall]

picky picky... engine needs oil

I'll make sure I keep an eye on that.

I know about the diesels... mostly mercedes and various japanese ones, but you are right, the GM 5.7 killed the attitude of a whole generation of americans towards diesels. I was drooling over the modern small turbodiesel 4x4 trucks in Africa -- but they don't sell those in the US because "no one wants them"