Grinding starter?

[CROM]

Well, I brought the starter into advance auto parts because they have a new starter tester that can check 24v starters. The down side is no one knows how to use it. So, after an employee fumbled with it for a bit, he go the bendix to extend but the gear wouldn't spin. Then came the smoke. Now, re-installed, the starter just makes a clicking noise when I turn the key like it's hung up or jammed.

This is the point in the evening when I gently set down wrenches, wash up, grab a beer and pretend I never messed with it in the first place. The good thing is, I should get a new starter courtesy of Advance.

I did, just now on the re-install, notice some chewed up teeth on the flex plate. So I'm replacing both. How terrible is pulling that ring gear? Anybody play that game before?

 

[CROM]

I own a starter and alternator shop and joined today. PM me i do this all day.

Parlay, welcome to SS! Check the above post for what's happening now...any suggestions about the 'clicking' noise?

 

[parlay100]

Well lets start from scratch. What type and make of starter do you have? Has this starter ever worked on the engine? How many batteries are you running?

1. Break the batteries down and check individually. Make sure the hold a load.
2. Clean terminals
3. Check voltage at the starter and compare to battery voltage drop should be minimal depending on length of cable.
4. Check voltage at switch terminal coming from bush buttin or key switch.

If all these pass we go to starter.
First off on checking a starter make sure advanced has a true "24" volt battery system to test. The starter can be checked on a 12 volt system it just spins half as slow. This will heat up the unit and cuase the insulation to melt and it will "smoke". This is same as over cranking with low batteries.

the easiet way is to do steps 1-4 and then use a jumper to connect the switch terminal to the battery terminal. If it clicks..Starter is dead. If if it drags(and you have done 1-4 correctly) Starter is bad.

Most people over think checking a starter. If it has voltage and you jump it and it does not spin it is bad.

Prestolite made these starters bullet proof they are big and heavy but will flipa truck. G/R are nice people love the size and wieght but they will not last near as long as the original. I have both in stock and sell both depending on the buyer.

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[CROM]

Thanks, Parlay! I just got home from work and yanked the thing off again. I'm going to bring it to work tomorrow and to the checks you've suggested. I'll let you know what I find.

Thanks again!

 

[parlay100]

yea let me know. Also get me the part number so we are on the same page. Good luck

 

[CROM]

The saga continues.... I ended up buying a 'new' starter (ac/delco rebuild) and the truck fired right up like new. The next day, however, when I tried to start the truck I got the dreaded click. Turn the key after the wait light off and glow plugs cycled, and all I got was the click of the starter relay. Tried again and it started.

A few days later it happened again...this time a tap on the starter fixed the problem. I assumed it was the solenoid not working as advertised and had planned to replace it today. Unfortunately, I was too late. The truck started fine this morning, but after work I received a 'click' only again. I figured I'd give the starter a tap, get the truck home and swap solenoids.

This time a tap didn't work. After turning the key a few times and getting just the click, I turned the key to the off position only to hear the starter start to turn by itself! It sounded very sluggish and slow. I quick popped the hood to disconnect the batteries, but was too late. The magic smoke in the starter relay in the cab escaped and the red wire and purple wire fried! As I ran around to the front of the truck, I seen more magic smoke. I popped the hood, disconnected the batteries (both!) and found that one of the wire comming out of the bus-bar (for lack of better term) was burned right through the insulation.

As the truck is at work, at it's a long weekend; I figured my best bet was to call for a ride home, do some research here and get back at it tomorrow morning. My work is an Air National Guard base, and my job is electronics, so troubleshooting equipment, wires and parts will be easy to come by. I'm just wondering where to start. I'm assuming the relay or egnition stuck which cause the burn-out and am still pretty sure the solenoid is bad.

I'm going to ask the help of you experts, once again, though!
What do you guys think?

 

[parlay100]

EIther you have really ****ty luck or a ****ty supplier. I am going to say and this is a BIG if. Lets say the starter was great. Then you have a battery issue. ie low voltage at the switch. There are two reasons a solenoid will hang in: 1. Low voltage 2. Bad solenoid.

Does your key swtich go from the switch straight to the starter solenoid?
Or Does it have a pilot solenoid?

I forgot is this a 24V ssytem?

If it is and you have A bad battery in the bank it will fry **** faster than anything. You need a volt meter check the charging and make sure we are charging then load test the battery.

Also get me the part number

 

[GM-M1008]

Let me ask again because you didn't answer my first reply, did you do the Doghead relay mod? If not search it on the web site and do that relay swap. My starter use to grind and not want to start the truck and once in a while it would just click and not even try starting. It wasnt my starter it was my relay under the dash.

 

[CROM]

@Parlay: Yes it's a 24v system and I'm not sure if I have a pilot solenoid. I'll voltage and load check both batteries individually and togather tomorrow. I'll also get you the part number after I climb underneath and look.

@GM-M1008: No, I have not done the Doghead relay mod, but now seems like a pretty opportunistic time! When I replace the burned relay, I'll do the upgrade. I've already read the thread and am prepared to get started on it.

I swear, one day, one day! ...I will be able to spend money on cool upgrades instead of repairs. I try to justify all this trouble to myself my taking into account how adept of a back-yard mechanic it's making me.

Thanks guys! I'll keep you posted.

 

[M1008driver]

SLOW CRANKING OR UNUSUAL NOISE DURING CRANKING
Step 1. Check starter mounting bolts for looseness.
Tighten any loose mounting bolts to 33 Ib.-ft. (45 N•m).
Step 2. Check clearance between starter pinion tooth and flywheel. (See paragraph 4-5,
INSTALLATION)
Step 3. Inspect flywheel ring gear for chipped or damaged teeth. (See paragraph 4-5,
INSTALLATION)

If chipped or damaged teeth are found, notify your supervisor.

I guess your supervisor would be your wife. Honey I need some more money for parts.

Did you change the bracket or brace if you bought a gear reduction starter? They are different.

Make sure you do that doghead mod. I wouldn't even keep trying the starter until you do the mod.

The saga continues.... I ended up buying a 'new' starter (ac/delco rebuild) and the truck fired right up like new.

silly question...did you buy a 24 volt starter?

 

[CROM]

@M1008driver: I followed the tech data on the install to the letter (I'm Air Force, so tech data rules my life). I replaced an old gear reduction starter with another and it is 24v. The wierdest thing about the situation is the starter firing on it's own. I plan on checking out my egnition when troubleshooting. I no longer need a key to start the truck, but it turn on and off like the key is in it, so I believe the locks are just broken.

 

[M1008driver]

The most important thing is the doghead mod the other poster mentioned. Also, the two starters use different brackets (braces), so I hope you changed that too.

I hope someone points you in the right direction with the electrical problem. It seems you can chase electrical gremlins forever and just get more frustrated when it doesn't work right.

My brother is a locksmith and changed my ignition and door locks. The ignition did not look hard, but may be for someone who doesn't work on them much.

Good luck with all this.

EDIT-

This time a tap didn't work. After turning the key a few times and getting just the click, I turned the key to the off position only to hear the starter start to turn by itself! It sounded very sluggish and slow. I quick popped the hood to disconnect the batteries, but was too late. The magic smoke in the starter relay in the cab escaped and the red wire and purple wire fried! As I ran around to the front of the truck, I seen more magic smoke. I popped the hood, disconnected the batteries (both!) and found that one of the wire comming out of the bus-bar (for lack of better term) was burned right through the insulation.

This is what I would do. Read everything I can. TM's, threads on starters, ignitions, etc. Replace those burnt wires (red cable and purple wire) and hope my starter and batteries are not toast. Before connecting the batteries, do the doghead mod.

Troubleshoot using the TM's. Get the multimeter and make some checks when you can before getting deeply involved. If you are in the NG maybe you can find a mechanic for sound advice.

DID I SAY DO THE doghead mod in case your relay is stuck causing all this trouble in the first place? It does not matter it is not in the TM, it is the best least expensive thing you can do to prevent problems.

 

[CROM]

Alright, finally worked out the gremlins. The starter relay sticking sent a constant voltage to a solenoid that was already flakey. As a result, both melted. Literally. My solenoid is a solid tube of goo. It got so hot, the solder connections on the outside face melted. So, a relay mod (Thank you Doghead!) and a new solenoid and CROM is back on the road!

Thanks for all the help, Gents!

 

[CROM]

...Side note: I got a little lucky through all this. When the relay fried, it also fried my solenoid wire and 24V wire in my harness. This was GOOD news, because the two wires melted togather and shorted out, only cooking the solenoid and not the starter motor. This also afforded me the opportunity to re-route/re-wire my harness. Now, all starting related wires run a separate route for easy access and to keep them from burning through other wires if this ever happens again.

 

[SSG Rock]

It's important that you have installed the support bracket from end of starter to engine block and tighten 2 mounting bolts evenly so you don't put starter head in a bind.

 

[M1008driver]

It's important that you have installed the support bracket from end of starter to engine block and tighten 2 mounting bolts evenly so you don't put starter head in a bind.

...and you know the gear reduction starter uses a different bracket, right?

Changed Starter - Now Starter Bracket Issue