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H140 fuel pump?
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m1161
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Did you access everything by taking off the top? I have one I started working on today which wont light as well. It was drained previously so I know the pump is working, It builds up to about 30psi when I purge then when it tries to light goes to about 125psi. Arc in the glass but no lighting. So Id guess my nozzle, or line to the nozzle is clogged like you found.
m1161
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Indeed, the top must come off.
I took out the grid screen on the output. Removed all the nuts on the back of the chamber. Also, I removed the nozzle to see if it was gunky, it was. Cleaned it.
I have not gone back to testing / turning it on since. Been busy with a new HMMWV and two M1161's.
There was an awful lot of fuel laying in the bottom of the chamber. I had to pick up the end of the unit with chanins and a forklift to tip the chamber back. Loaded it with news papers to soak up all that fuel that is out of sight! That turned out to be what was causing it to burn furiously and smoke.
Sorry I bought it but, soon, I'll be back to getting it working....I guess :>)
larry
FWIW...I had to buy pump parts to replace the bad ones in the pump! The regulator to be specific.
I now run about 115 lbs. pressure...after replacing the failed pressure meter LOL...it never ends.
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I was wondering if you ever found a new pump? I have 5 of these and I am having problems with all 5 pumps. One the pumps I was thinking of rebuilding.... has anyone done that? Are their parts available to do this? Can you change out the pressure regulator?
Two of the others I am going to change out the filter and gasket and see what they do.
The last two are not building pressure but I cannot get them off the motor shaft. I have been heating the two bolts up with a torch, but those things are on there tight, and there is very little room to break them loose. Any ideas??
m1161
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I bought several look-alike pumps on eBay. Very cheap as I remember. The regulator was a match on several and I swapped the parts out to the original and it worked perfectly. Very important to put the "cap" back on over the adjustment screw as it will seep fuel to the floor. Very little adjustment range to get the pressure you want...fractional turns are all it takes.
Maybe this weekend I'll go back to trying to make it useful....somehow I've lost my enthusiasm.
larry
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Thanks man this really helps me out!
I am finding more and more ways to get these things running. I thought they were dead machines, and one by one I eventually get each one figured out. These forums really help with the brain damage of not knowing and not finishing
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So what pump should I be looking for on Ebay? I have one in a similar situation.
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- Denver, CO
There are two pumps they used on these units: one is a Suntec and the other one is a Webster pump. With that being said, Suntec bought Webster Pumps. Both pumps are obsolete. I have not been able to find EITHER pump in stock or for sale. I have attached pictures of the pumps with Model number below. Webster pump is 1R122C-4EN3. Suntec Pump is J6BC-325-3.
I have 9 of these units. Not one of them had a bad fuel pump. 4 of them had broken couplers, 1 had a bad fuel solenoid, and 1 needed the fuel regulator pin replaced. Normally if the coupler is sheared off, it's because the oil they put into the units to preserve them is clogging up the gears. First thing to do is to inject SEAFOAM into the pump itself. The webster pump is easy just remove the top plug in the middle and inject SEAFOAM using a syringe. The Suntec pump I took off the inlet hose and injected it directly into the hose.
On the unit itself there should be a yellow tag. I have it attached below, it specifically states you need to flush the pump. Flushing it with diesel fuel is not enough....use SEAFOAM. DO NOT expect the pump to be able to flush out the oil, pull fresh diesel, and feed the burner.
I removed the pumps set up to an external motor and tested each pump. Picture below. My inlet line I ran into a 1 gallon jug of SEAFOAM. My burner line I ran into a jug, and I ran my overflow into another jug. This way i could test and flush all of the lines with SEAFOAM while making sure all of the fuel solenoids are in working order.
As you are flushing the lines, you will see the oil mixing with the SEAFOAM, it will look like motor oil at first and gradually turn into the color of the Seafoam. I also attached a pressure gauge on my setup. while you are purging the oil out of the pump and through the lines you should see the pressure build up to 10 to 25PSI as the oil is purged. Keep in mind I did the same thing without removing the pump and burner line. I just used the syringe and an airhose. It takes about 4 or 5 syringes of Seafoam to flush the pump and the lines. Do this untill you show pressure building up with the Seafoam. I keep stressing the SEAFOAM due to its lubrication properties. After you have pressure with the seafoam put your new fuel filter on and top it off with diesel fuel. Your pump should run great now.
The Webster Pump is definitely the better pump and easier to work on. All of my Suntec pumps had problems. The biggest problem with the Suntec pumps was removing the pumps. You cannot get a socket over the bolts holding the pump onto the motor, also they used locktight, so you have to heat up the bolts. The hardest part was removing the 2 bolts on the Suntec pumps.
You have to clear the oil out of the pump and in the burner line. I have found you can clear the burner line from the pump to the burner inlet and it should be fine. The only time you have problems past the burner line is you try starting the unit without cleaning it first. Normally the oil rests in the lowest point of the burner line.
I have had several pumps that seem like they are locked up and have sheared the coupling head off. Soak them in SEAFOAM overnight and try turning them with a wrench. I have been able to bring them all back to life.
The problems I see with these machines is the coupling shearing off, the fuel pressure screw malfunctioning, and the solenoid failing. All of these things come from the oil they used to preserve them. The biggest issue is the coupling cost $400 to $600 IF THEY HAVE THEM IN STOCK. I am currently working with a local machine shop to see if I get them made.
Also I am working with Webster pump on getting another pump they make work on these machines. I think I can get another Webster pump to work but I have to redesign the pump shaft and the coupling.....Stay tuned!
So what pump should I be looking for on Ebay? I have one in a similar situation.
[/QUOTE]
m1161
Member
- 54
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- Location
- Hackettstown NJ
[/QUOTE]
Good Saturday Morning,
I don't use the "Sun" pump. I bought several pumps that sort of looked like my Webster from eBay. None ever had the mounting holes that the original, obsolete Webster has. I used an eBay pump for the regulator parts that fit exactly into the original. That regulator was bad from the "preservative" that was in the system.
Last week I found another preservative problem and determined the L1 solenoid was not turning off completely the fuel to the nozzle.
Here's where the BIG problems started....Since L1 solenoid was only partially cutting fuel to the nozzle,
fuel continued to slowly run into the chamber when the unit was in cool-down or ventilate!!!! This led to massively hot fires when put into the heat mode as the chamber was loaded with fuel laying in the bottom. Roaring and raging fires were burning in the cool and ventilate mode with no way to stop them as it was self perpetuating. A total shut down cut the combustion air fan
and they eventually died.SOLVING THE PROBLEM.....since the L1 solenoid is a "3 way" unit, it's a bitch to remove with all the piping and mounts. I ordered a 120 VAC solenoid from Amazon. I installed it between the copper feed line to the nozzle and where the feed line connected. I connected the 120 leads in parallel with the L1 solenoid's feed of 120. PROBLEM SOLVED. Now the additional solenoid definitely cuts the "leaky" feed to the nozzle and the fire stops when switched to cool-down.
It appears the "preservative" they put into the fuel system damaged not only the pump but the L1 solenoid's ability to completely close off the feed to the nozzle.
The pix shows the 4 inch nipple to an elbow to the new solenoid. The nipple was inseerted into the opening that previously accomodated the feed to the nozzle. The nozzle is now connected to the output of the new solenoid which is wired in parallel with the original L1 solenoid.
It is taking time for the old junk to burn off whilst the system is now operatiing. White smoke is slowly diminishing from the exhaust,
Hope this all helps.
m1161
Member
- 54
- 31
- 18
- Location
- Hackettstown NJ
Good Saturday Morning,
I don't use the "Sun" pump. I bought several pumps that sort of looked like my Webster from eBay. None ever had the mounting holes that the original, obsolete Webster has. I used an eBay pump for the regulator parts that fit exactly into the original. That regulator was bad from the "preservative" that was in the system.
Last week I found another preservative problem and determined the L1 solenoid was not turning off completely the fuel to the nozzle.
Here's where the BIG problems started....Since L1 solenoid was only partially cutting fuel to the nozzle,
fuel continued to slowly run into the chamber when the unit was in cool-down or ventilate!!!! This led to massively hot fires when put into the heat mode as the chamber was loaded with fuel laying in the bottom. Roaring and raging fires were burning in the cool and ventilate mode with no way to stop them as it was self perpetuating. A total shut down cut the combustion air fanView attachment 911396 and they eventually died.
SOLVING THE PROBLEM.....since the L1 solenoid is a "3 way" unit, it's a bitch to remove with all the piping and mounts. I ordered a 120 VAC solenoid from Amazon. I installed it between the copper feed line to the nozzle and where the feed line connected. I connected the 120 leads in parallel with the L1 solenoid's feed of 120. PROBLEM SOLVED. Now the additional solenoid definitely cuts the "leaky" feed to the nozzle and the fire stops when switched to cool-down.
It appears the "preservative" they put into the fuel system damaged not only the pump but the L1 solenoid's ability to completely close off the feed to the nozzle.
The pix shows the 4 inch nipple to an elbow to the new solenoid. The nipple was inseerted into the opening that previously accomodated the feed to the nozzle. The nozzle is now connected to the output of the new solenoid which is wired in parallel with the original L1 solenoid.
It is taking time for the old junk to burn off whilst the system is now operatiing. White smoke is slowly diminishing from the exhaust,
Hope this all helps.
[/QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE END (I hope)
This Saturday afternoon, I've run the ASH for hours. After a lot of white smoke, it is now running very clean...no smoke. The add'l solenoid worked correctly (see above L1 discussion). The initial smoke today was the burning off of all the crud in the chamber and the exhaust piping....it's now clean and dry, no black sludge anywhere anymore.
BIG NEWS:
It appears the TM that came with the unit is not up to date. My 140 runs on timed-cycles. It runs for 3 minutes on, shuts down for 1 minute and then fires up again! I didn't see anything about timed cycles in the TM.
There is a printed circuit board hidden behind the "box" that encloses the control panel. No reference to this modification anywhere I could find. I SUSPECT this is the circuit that is controlling the on / off
(3 on/1 off) cycle of the fire.
I hope my work helps others. These can be a dangerous beast. Be careful.
Larry
I don't use the "Sun" pump. I bought several pumps that sort of looked like my Webster from eBay. None ever had the mounting holes that the original, obsolete Webster has. I used an eBay pump for the regulator parts that fit exactly into the original. That regulator was bad from the "preservative" that was in the system.
Last week I found another preservative problem and determined the L1 solenoid was not turning off completely the fuel to the nozzle.
Here's where the BIG problems started....Since L1 solenoid was only partially cutting fuel to the nozzle,
fuel continued to slowly run into the chamber when the unit was in cool-down or ventilate!!!! This led to massively hot fires when put into the heat mode as the chamber was loaded with fuel laying in the bottom. Roaring and raging fires were burning in the cool and ventilate mode with no way to stop them as it was self perpetuating. A total shut down cut the combustion air fanView attachment 911396 and they eventually died.
SOLVING THE PROBLEM.....since the L1 solenoid is a "3 way" unit, it's a bitch to remove with all the piping and mounts. I ordered a 120 VAC solenoid from Amazon. I installed it between the copper feed line to the nozzle and where the feed line connected. I connected the 120 leads in parallel with the L1 solenoid's feed of 120. PROBLEM SOLVED. Now the additional solenoid definitely cuts the "leaky" feed to the nozzle and the fire stops when switched to cool-down.
It appears the "preservative" they put into the fuel system damaged not only the pump but the L1 solenoid's ability to completely close off the feed to the nozzle.
The pix shows the 4 inch nipple to an elbow to the new solenoid. The nipple was inseerted into the opening that previously accomodated the feed to the nozzle. The nozzle is now connected to the output of the new solenoid which is wired in parallel with the original L1 solenoid.
It is taking time for the old junk to burn off whilst the system is now operatiing. White smoke is slowly diminishing from the exhaust,
Hope this all helps.
[/QUOTE]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE END (I hope)
This Saturday afternoon, I've run the ASH for hours. After a lot of white smoke, it is now running very clean...no smoke. The add'l solenoid worked correctly (see above L1 discussion). The initial smoke today was the burning off of all the crud in the chamber and the exhaust piping....it's now clean and dry, no black sludge anywhere anymore.
BIG NEWS:
It appears the TM that came with the unit is not up to date. My 140 runs on timed-cycles. It runs for 3 minutes on, shuts down for 1 minute and then fires up again! I didn't see anything about timed cycles in the TM.
There is a printed circuit board hidden behind the "box" that encloses the control panel. No reference to this modification anywhere I could find. I SUSPECT this is the circuit that is controlling the on / off
(3 on/1 off) cycle of the fire.
I hope my work helps others. These can be a dangerous beast. Be careful.
Larry
m1161
Member
- 54
- 31
- 18
- Location
- Hackettstown NJ
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
THE END (I hope)
This Saturday afternoon, I've run the ASH for hours. After a lot of white smoke, it is now running very clean...no smoke. The add'l solenoid worked correctly (see above L1 discussion). The initial smoke today was the burning off of all the crud in the chamber and the exhaust piping....it's now clean and dry, no black sludge anywhere anymore.
BIG NEWS:
It appears the TM that came with the unit is not up to date. My 140 runs on timed-cycles. It runs for 3 minutes on, shuts down for 1 minute and then fires up again! I didn't see anything about timed cycles in the TM.
There is a printed circuit board hidden behind the "box" that encloses the control panel. No reference to this modification anywhere I could find. I SUSPECT this is the circuit that is controlling the on / off
(3 on/1 off) cycle of the fire.
I hope my work helps others. These can be a dangerous beast. Be careful.
Larry
[/QUOTE]
PS...it turns out S2 is what controls the cycling of the burner, not a timer. After the output air reaches about 160 deg. it is turned off to cool. This is documented at the top of pg. 0003 00-4 "Heating Modes"
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- Denver, CO
PS...it turns out S2 is what controls the cycling of the burner, not a timer. After the output air reaches about 160 deg. it is turned off to cool. This is documented at the top of pg. 0003 00-4 "Heating Modes"
[/QUOTE]
Great response Larry, I have had the same problems with 2 of the 9 heaters I bought.
PS...it turns out S2 is what controls the cycling of the burner, not a timer. After the output air reaches about 160 deg. it is turned off to cool. This is documented at the top of pg. 0003 00-4 "Heating Modes"
[/QUOTE]
Great evaluation of the heater Larry. I have the same problems with 2 of the 9 heaters I bought. If the unit is smoking in the vent and cool down mode, the L1 Solenoid is bad. if you tear the burner assembly apart, you will find unburned fuel in the chamber. In some cases, A LOT OF FUEL.
You are correct the L1 Solenoid is a bitch to remove. I am seeing you left the L1 Solenoid in place and placed a third solenoid (Let's call it L3) on the outlet of the fuel pump feeding the burner. I ASSUME you wired the L3 in parallel with the L1 solenoid???
I have also seen posts about the "machine cycling". People have said "it should not cycle as much". I agree with you Larry. The unit cycles once it hits 160 degrees until it cools down. Once the unit has cooled down it initiates the heater mode again. What I have also read is the only way for the unit to cool down is through the fresh air vent. I have found if you are starting these heaters in warmer weather they cycle a lot, like they are supposed to. Make sure your fresh air vent is all the way open. The colder the air is outside the less it will cycle due to the colder air being pulled through the unit. I have tested this with a temperature gun. If you remove the temp sensor, the unit will run untill it reaches 300 degrees, and the over temp sensor will shut the unit down.
Another thing to keep in mind, I bought my units in NC..... sea level. I live in Denver, CO (5280 above sea level). The manual call for the fuel pressure to be lower at such altitude (80 - 90psi). Be sure to adjust your fuel pressure according to your location.
Cancunlarry
m1161
Member
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- Hackettstown NJ
Great response Larry, I have had the same problems with 2 of the 9 heaters I bought.
PS...it turns out S2 is what controls the cycling of the burner, not a timer. After the output air reaches about 160 deg. it is turned off to cool. This is documented at the top of pg. 0003 00-4 "Heating Modes"
[/QUOTE]
Great evaluation of the heater Larry. I have the same problems with 2 of the 9 heaters I bought. If the unit is smoking in the vent and cool down mode, the L1 Solenoid is bad. if you tear the burner assembly apart, you will find unburned fuel in the chamber. In some cases, A LOT OF FUEL.
You are correct the L1 Solenoid is a bitch to remove. I am seeing you left the L1 Solenoid in place and placed a third solenoid (Let's call it L3) on the outlet of the fuel pump feeding the burner. I ASSUME you wired the L3 in parallel with the L1 solenoid???
I have also seen posts about the "machine cycling". People have said "it should not cycle as much". I agree with you Larry. The unit cycles once it hits 160 degrees until it cools down. Once the unit has cooled down it initiates the heater mode again. What I have also read is the only way for the unit to cool down is through the fresh air vent. I have found if you are starting these heaters in warmer weather they cycle a lot, like they are supposed to. Make sure your fresh air vent is all the way open. The colder the air is outside the less it will cycle due to the colder air being pulled through the unit. I have tested this with a temperature gun. If you remove the temp sensor, the unit will run untill it reaches 300 degrees, and the over temp sensor will shut the unit down.
Another thing to keep in mind, I bought my units in NC..... sea level. I live in Denver, CO (5280 above sea level). The manual call for the fuel pressure to be lower at such altitude (80 - 90psi). Be sure to adjust your fuel pressure according to your location.
Cancunlarry
[/QUOTE]
Good Morning Cancunlarry,
Yup, we've traveled similar paths.
Yes, I added L3 and it is wired to the TB's 1 and 2 as is L1.
I used a temp. gun and measured 160 and S2 shuts down the feed to the nozzle. It comes back on at approx. 100 degrees. However, I've been running it with the output and input next to each other, no hoses yet. Input is seeing much of the output....for now. I'd not be inclined to run it to the S3 overtemp.
I went thru severeal packages of hand towels soaking up all the fuel that was leaked by L1 into the chamber. I picked up the unit from the hand rail with chains to a forklift to make all the fuel run to the "nozzle end" there was so much!! Only figured out it was from the nozzle after I put the nozzle outside to check the spray pattern and discovered it was dribbling fuel when it should be off....which took me to L1. I got L3 from Amazon for about $24.
FWIW, the fiber coupler between the blower shaft driving the pump, sheared due to the pump being "frozen" from the preservative goop. That's why I suggest, don't even turn it on until dismounting the pump and checking for freedom-of-movement. A machinist made a new coupler from a block of teflon for me. some outfit was trying to get $600 for them !!!
The regulator in the pump failed so I bought similar-looking pumps on eBay and got the correct replacement regulator parts from one of them. There were no exact replacements to be found anywhere....look alikes did the job.
Larry
My toys...2 M1161's, 1 M1097A2, 1 M151A2, 1 M274A2 and "a heater" LOL
Sirs-
Looks like you have a fix to my issue.
Would you please read through my issue and respond with your thoughts?
I found and installed another L1 on eBay and still having the same issue. Too much fuel to the burner.
Thank you
Daniel
Looks like you have a fix to my issue.
Choctaw H140 sending too much fuel to burner
Won at auction. Cleaned out the tank and blew out all lines/new filter and ran new fuel to burner- as previous posts suggested. Upon inspection/operation of the H140 I was getting raw unburnt fuel coming out the exhaust pipe in “all” settings-Ventilation, Cool down and Heat mode. Made a mess...
www.steelsoldiers.com
Would you please read through my issue and respond with your thoughts?
I found and installed another L1 on eBay and still having the same issue. Too much fuel to the burner.
Thank you
Daniel
TommyT
New member
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Well it’s been a year and I’m tackling this project again. I am not sure where to start though. It seems as if my pump isn’t working. I can see the white coupling spin on backside of pump when in vent or cool down mode.
I filled the fuel filter with diesel and even took off the fuel line that goes to the pump from the fuel filter. I used a small syringe and filled it with diesel just to help alleviate possible air.
I took off the fuel inlet line that goes from tank to fuel filter and it’s bone dry. I can put my finger on the fuel filter fitting at the inlet and I don’t feel any suction.
At a loss where I should begin to troubleshoot some more. Anyone located close to Atlanta?
I filled the fuel filter with diesel and even took off the fuel line that goes to the pump from the fuel filter. I used a small syringe and filled it with diesel just to help alleviate possible air.
I took off the fuel inlet line that goes from tank to fuel filter and it’s bone dry. I can put my finger on the fuel filter fitting at the inlet and I don’t feel any suction.
At a loss where I should begin to troubleshoot some more. Anyone located close to Atlanta?
Start with the basics. The more details provided the better.
Did you run through the troubleshooting procedures in the Technical Manual (TM) for your unit? This always helps.
Assuming you have an H140 since you have a "cool down" mode:
Can you see ignition through the sight glass in the cool down mode? What happens when you put the unit in heat mode? Does the "Flame Out" light come on after 5 seconds or so? FYI- The doors must be closed for cool down and heat mode functions to operate properly. If the air pressure switch is not electronically closing, neither function will work. Temporally bypassing the air pressure switch is sometimes needed for diagnostics.
Assuming this is a fuel supply related issue since you have no suction;
Verify the fuel selector valve is set to the "internal tank" setting. I did have one unit where someone installed the selector valve backwards on the H120 and I also wasn't getting suction until I set it to "external tank". Something to check.
What is the fuel pressure gauge indicating in vent mode? If you don't feel any suction and it's not pulling fuel from the internal/external tanks; it should be reading 0. The unit should be cycling fuel through the pump and back to the tank in vent mode. You should read approximately 25 psi on the fuel gauge in vent mode, if the fuel gauge works. Once you kick the unit into heat mode, L1 closes electronically and provides fuel to the burner.
Verify there are no blockages in the fuel supply lines or pickup tube.
I would also again confirm that your white fuel coupler is intact. I've found that most fuel supply issues to the pump is because the fuel coupler is sheared. This is simple.
With the unit off, manually turn the fan motor with your left pinky touching the fuel coupler. If the coupler doesn't spin or you can stop the coupler from spinning, the coupler is sheared.
Did you run through the troubleshooting procedures in the Technical Manual (TM) for your unit? This always helps.
Assuming you have an H140 since you have a "cool down" mode:
Can you see ignition through the sight glass in the cool down mode? What happens when you put the unit in heat mode? Does the "Flame Out" light come on after 5 seconds or so? FYI- The doors must be closed for cool down and heat mode functions to operate properly. If the air pressure switch is not electronically closing, neither function will work. Temporally bypassing the air pressure switch is sometimes needed for diagnostics.
Assuming this is a fuel supply related issue since you have no suction;
Verify the fuel selector valve is set to the "internal tank" setting. I did have one unit where someone installed the selector valve backwards on the H120 and I also wasn't getting suction until I set it to "external tank". Something to check.
What is the fuel pressure gauge indicating in vent mode? If you don't feel any suction and it's not pulling fuel from the internal/external tanks; it should be reading 0. The unit should be cycling fuel through the pump and back to the tank in vent mode. You should read approximately 25 psi on the fuel gauge in vent mode, if the fuel gauge works. Once you kick the unit into heat mode, L1 closes electronically and provides fuel to the burner.
Verify there are no blockages in the fuel supply lines or pickup tube.
I would also again confirm that your white fuel coupler is intact. I've found that most fuel supply issues to the pump is because the fuel coupler is sheared. This is simple.
With the unit off, manually turn the fan motor with your left pinky touching the fuel coupler. If the coupler doesn't spin or you can stop the coupler from spinning, the coupler is sheared.