Hardening genset

[Bill W]

OK
I read in a past post ( which I can't find again ) about hardening the genset by grounding/tieing all the power output lugs together ( LO,L1,L2,L3) and keep the master switch on and also have the unit hooked to a ground rod that is seperate from the house/barn power supply ground rods. Did I get/remember it right??

 

[steelandcanvas]

Hardening?? Sounds like a dead-short to me.

 

[319]

What is "hardening the genset"? Is it to protect it from EMPs?

 

[BIG_RED]

^Yup, That sounds like EMP hardening to me. You wouldn't run it with all the outputs shorted, just store it that way. Idea being: Any current induced in the coils by an EMP strike would be grounded out rather than building up and frying stuff. I don't know much about these specific gensets, so I can't be much help. I have done alot of reading and thinking about EMP hardening. So far I'd still be toast if we got EMP'ed

 

[Bill W]

Thanks big red
I should have stated that it would be for a stored genset but I "thought" that would have been a given, so my apoligies to steelandcanvas if I confused him.
My understanding also is if its grounded at both sides of a circuit then the pulse won't "jump" ( for lack of education ) across them and fry them in the process
Since the goverment has decided to upgrade our power grid system across the nation to help protect against emp's ( and make it more effcient ) then I figure I could spend a couple of bucks on some wire and a ground rod and harden up my (STORED!) genset, besides I needed a ground rod near my genset for when I run it anyway

 

[319]

Thanks big red
I should have stated that it would be for a stored genset but I "thought" that would have been a given, so my apoligies to steelandcanvas if I confused him.
My understanding also is if its grounded at both sides of a circuit then the pulse won't "jump" ( for lack of education ) across them and fry them in the process
Since the goverment has decided to upgrade our power grid system across the nation to help protect against emp's ( and make it more effcient ) then I figure I should spent a couple of bucks on some wire and a ground rod and harden up my (STORED!) genset, besides I needed a ground rod near my genset for when I run it anyway

Confused me too. I was envisioning this really cool bright flash of light!!

 

[steelandcanvas]

I should have stated that it would be for a stored genset but I "thought" that would have been a given, so my apoligies to steelandcanvas if I confused him.

No apology necessary, I "assumed" with the genset running. Thanks for the clarification Bill, I learned something today.

 

[ken]

I can see your point. Although i don't know how well it would work. There are plenty of circuts behind the panel that would probally still be effected. It couldn't hurt, unless some one started it. Id also build a faraday cage for it. And ground that also. And mabye a container inside a grounded building.

 

[steelypip]

To do it right, you would have to make sure the ground rod was right there at the generator (which is a violation of NEC if you're using the generator as a backup generator to a normally grid-connected house).

But yes, if you're concerned about EMP, grounding and shielding everything is the solution. Well, that or installing overvoltage bleed-off devices like neon bulbs and MOVs.

Given when the last two generations of MEPs were designed, I think it's very likely that they were meant to cope with EMP (by means of semiconductor voltage ratings and protective devices). Grounding the generator windings would seem a sensible precaution, though.

To do it correctly with a grid-connected house, you would have to break the connection to the local ground and tie to the household ground before you connected the generator to the house. Two grounds on opposite ends of the transmission line are a distinctly bad idea.

 

[NEIOWA]

Thanks big red
I should have stated that it would be for a stored genset but I "thought" that would have been a given, so my apoligies to steelandcanvas if I confused him.
My understanding also is if its grounded at both sides of a circuit then the pulse won't "jump" ( for lack of education ) across them and fry them in the process
Since the goverment has decided to upgrade our power grid system across the nation to help protect against emp's ( and make it more effcient ) then I figure I could spend a couple of bucks on some wire and a ground rod and harden up my (STORED!) genset, besides I needed a ground rod near my genset for when I run it anyway

Actually, as I understand it, the Feds have been thinking about maybe someday talking over the idea that it might be worthwhile to possibly look at what a EMP might conceptually do to inconvience the users of the national power grid. Unless they too busy with vacations or taking 3 martini lunches.

No, no our little friends the in Peking aren't busy with weaponizing EMP and doing pilot projects putting their hackers to penetrating the transmission control network. Move along, nothing to be concerned with.

 

[319]

To do it right, you would have to make sure the ground rod was right there at the generator (which is a violation of NEC if you're using the generator as a backup generator to a normally grid-connected house).

But yes, if you're concerned about EMP, grounding and shielding everything is the solution. Well, that or installing overvoltage bleed-off devices like neon bulbs and MOVs.

Given when the last two generations of MEPs were designed, I think it's very likely that they were meant to cope with EMP (by means of semiconductor voltage ratings and protective devices). Grounding the generator windings would seem a sensible precaution, though.

To do it correctly with a grid-connected house, you would have to break the connection to the local ground and tie to the household ground before you connected the generator to the house. Two grounds on opposite ends of the transmission line are a distinctly bad idea.

So you harden the generator, but what does the EMP do to equipment in your house, such as motor driven, and electronic appliances, and how do you protect those? Assuming of course you're connected to the local grid and are only going to use your generator after the strike.

 

[Bill W]

The electronics in your house that have transisters are pretty much toast but things like incadescent lights, stoves, fans and well pumps should be fine. My 1955 RCA Hi Fi will also be fine as its a tube type radio. Next on my list is a faraday box with its own ground rod also, gonna use a aluminum mil medical chests I have ( got to insulate them first and redo the lid seals )

 

[PeterD]

I've got to wonder how much protection my metal building provides? It blocks cell phone reception very well (with the doors closed.)

One think is remember that it is EMP, and the M is magnetic. That magnetic pulse can induce currents in something that is fully metal shielded if it is strong enough.

 

[derf]

I've got to wonder how much protection my metal building provides? It blocks cell phone reception very well (with the doors closed.)

One think is remember that it is EMP, and the M is magnetic. That magnetic pulse can induce currents in something that is fully metal shielded if it is strong enough.

Your electrics and electronics are not connected to your metal building. It may provide some protection if stuff is stored inside, but not for things inside that are plugged into the power grid.

 

[Bill W]

Actually, as I understand it, the Feds have been thinking about maybe someday talking over the idea that it might be worthwhile to possibly look at what a EMP might conceptually do to inconvience the users of the national power grid. Unless they too busy with vacations or taking 3 martini lunches.

No, no our little friends the in Peking aren't busy with weaponizing EMP and doing pilot projects putting their hackers to penetrating the transmission control network. Move along, nothing to be concerned with.

The Gov'mt put together the EMP commision in 2001 and they put out their final/latest report in 2008. Commission to Assess the Threat to the United States from Electromagnetic Pulse (EMP) Attack For short reading go to top right column and click on Testomony (pdf)

 

[steelypip]

Sobering reading.

There's one thing to watch out for, though - as long as Beijing continues to have a strong trade relationship with USA that keeps a majority of urban China employed, you can bet that they're not going to disrupt that with an EMP attack against the US. They simply don't have strong enough internal security forces to deal with the worker uprising that would result when all the factory jobs disappeared when our economy collapsed.

If you see the CN government do what the Japanese government did 1925-1940 and progressively militarize (or otherwise internalize) the entire commercial work force, then at some point they'll be able to absorb the US trade-related job losses with small enough worker discomfort that they can bear to pull the plug. That's when to be worried and start grounding things.

Of course, Iran has no trade relationship with us, and if they successfully develop a fission bomb, they already have missiles sufficient to loft it over the eastern seaboard from international waters. After technology, the only deterrent we've got is the possibility of massive retaliation, and that would be difficult to justify without plenty of evidence that those scruffy guys on that freighter were supplied and financed by Iran.

See also: the majority of 9/11 hijackers were Saudi nationals, but we went to war with Afghanistan and Iraq over it.