Help getting 805b running

[loosegravel]

This is a rotary injection pump correct and the supply from the lift pump goes into the center?

Is there an expected voltage at the electric actuator. On a 12v Cummins for example you have 12v at the shut off to actuate it open but I imagine this may be more comple.

I have the batteries on charge again to run another set of tests.

Yes, from the lift pump it goes through the fuel filters and then to the center of the injection Pump. The fuel actuator does two things. It allows the fuel to return to the tank, and in this case it also regulates engine speed based on the signal from the MPU. (Magnetic pick-up unit)

 

[loosegravel]

Yes, from the lift pump it goes through the fuel filters and then to the center of the injection Pump. The fuel actuator does two things. It allows the fuel to return to the tank, and in this case it also regulates engine speed based on the signal from the MPU. (Magnetic pick-up unit)

I apologize for jumping in so heavily here on your thread. By all means, follow the TM for cranking but no start. I’m simply sharing Some of my own experiences here too. As Guy pointed out earlier, low DC voltage can cause problems. It would be good to know what your cranking vdc actually is. Anything less than 22 vdc things will stop working. That threshold maybe a little higher or a little lower depending on what we’re looking at.

 

[Guyfang]

I have an 805b that was started and ran using an alternate fuel source and manipulated the electric fuel pump and shutoff to achieve that.

My question is where to start and any likely culprit or culprits?
(I would fill the tank up after charging the batteries. And you need very much to get into the operators TM, and read up on the set, and how it starts.)

My thought was to clean the fuel tank. Can a no fuel reading cause an issue requiring them to bypass the pump and shutoff? (When you have a no fuel reading, the gen set CAN NOT BE STARTED.) Is cleaning the tank necessary or advisable? (Look inside the tank. Take a fuel sample from the tank and the fuel filter.)
Do you still have a low fuel idiot light on?
My other question off the bat is are the electronics sensitive to using a 24v batter charger or booster? As it may take some tome to progress through diagnosing the problem(s) a trickle charger would be essential and a booster helpful. (Charge and load test the batteries. Then try and troubleshoot. This set get cranky when the batteries are not tip top charged.)

I included some photos from govplanet. I wonder what, if anything, it means that they spilled fuel around the fuel cap. (That someone used a 5 gal can to try and get enough fuel in the set to start it, and was messy) Does that point to anything as a place to start?

Three gallons of fuel in the tank is not enough

 

[Tommytone]

I have an 805b that was started and ran using an alternate fuel source and manipulated the electric fuel pump and shutoff to achieve that.

My question is where to start and any likely culprit or culprits?
(I would fill the tank up after charging the batteries. And you need very much to get into the operators TM, and read up on the set, and how it starts.)

My thought was to clean the fuel tank. Can a no fuel reading cause an issue requiring them to bypass the pump and shutoff? (When you have a no fuel reading, the gen set CAN NOT BE STARTED.) Is cleaning the tank necessary or advisable? (Look inside the tank. Take a fuel sample from the tank and the fuel filter.)
Do you still have a low fuel idiot light on?
My other question off the bat is are the electronics sensitive to using a 24v batter charger or booster? As it may take some tome to progress through diagnosing the problem(s) a trickle charger would be essential and a booster helpful. (Charge and load test the batteries. Then try and troubleshoot. This set get cranky when the batteries are not tip top charged.)

I included some photos from govplanet. I wonder what, if anything, it means that they spilled fuel around the fuel cap. (That someone used a 5 gal can to try and get enough fuel in the set to start it, and was messy) Does that point to anything as a place to start?

Three gallons of fuel in the tank is not enough

I have found this is so true. With all this done, following the priming advice and so on we got it started.

It ran rough/knocked and the voltage was maxed out while the hz looked good I believe. I shut it down to regroup, triple check the oil level etc.

I restarted it and lowered the voltage to 210 I believe and it was running the same rough and making a knocking noise.

I am including a Dropbox link to a short video below. If you have any ideas let me know. I did look at the TM but did not see any helpful items but I may not have looked everywhere. If you look at the previous photos of the injection pump someone had loosened the lines at the pump as the paint is gone but who knows when that was.

Video Dec 30 2022, 5 15 54 PM.mov

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

 

[loosegravel]

I have found this is so true. With all this done, following the priming advice and so on we got it started.

It ran rough/knocked and the voltage was maxed out while the hz looked good I believe. I shut it down to regroup, triple check the oil level etc.

I restarted it and lowered the voltage to 210 I believe and it was running the same rough and making a knocking noise.

I am including a Dropbox link to a short video below. If you have any ideas let me know. I did look at the TM but did not see any helpful items but I may not have looked everywhere. If you look at the previous photos of the injection pump someone had loosened the lines at the pump as the paint is gone but who knows when that was.

Video Dec 30 2022, 5 15 54 PM.mov

Shared with Dropbox

www.dropbox.com

I can't really tell much from watching/listening to your short video. Do you know what the engine oil pressure was? An injection nozzle with a poor spray pattern can also cause a "fuel knock" on these diesel engines. With it running, can you tell where the knocking sound is coming from?

 

[Guyfang]

The -24 TM has several levels of troubleshooting. Look in them all.

Is the set in 60 hertz mode? Do not change the hertz while the set is running. Bad thing can happen.

What position is TB1, (voltage reconnection panel) in?

Kinda sounds like one jug is not firing.

 

[Tommytone]

The -24 TM has several levels of troubleshooting. Look in them all.

Is the set in 60 hertz mode? Do not change the hertz while the set is running. Bad thing can happen.

What position is TB1, (voltage reconnection panel) in?

Kinda sounds like one jug is not firing.

I will dig into it. I thought it sounded a little like a 5.9 Cummins when you bleed the system with one injectorbline cracked open and not firing myself.

 

[loosegravel]

I will dig into it. I thought it sounded a little like a 5.9 Cummins when you bleed the system with one injectorbline cracked open and not firing myself.

Good job so far! Do you have access to an infrared heat gun? If so, check the temperature with the engine running at each of the exhaust manifold outlets for the individual cylinders. It will tell you if you have a dead hole. Or, the old school method of touch can also tell you if one cylinder isn’t firing.

 

[Tommytone]

I will dig into it. I thought it sounded a little like a 5.9 Cummins when you bleed the system with one injectorbline cracked open and not firing myself.

See the photos. The 2nd cylinder from the fan end had fuel in the area around the injector.

Further research revealed the injector appears tight and they loosened a bleed/return fitting just prior to, I believe you see 2 teeing in just after the fitting, 2. I did not see any other fuel residue but 4 is hard to see.

Could the bleed side cause it to run rough. I had a 5.9 Cummins 24v that would loose prime and not start from a return leak and I wonder if, in this instance, it is starting but down a cylinder or air in the system is causing poor performance in some way?

 

[loosegravel]

See the photos. The 2nd cylinder from the fan end had fuel in the area around the injector.

Further research revealed the injector appears tight and they loosened a bleed/return fitting just prior to, I believe you see 2 teeing in just after the fitting, 2. I did not see any other fuel residue but 4 is hard to see.

Could the bleed side cause it to run rough. I had a 5.9 Cummins 24v that would loose prime and not start from a return leak and I wonder if, in this instance, it is starting but down a cylinder or air in the system is causing poor performance in some way?

That fitting is definitely a problem. It looks obviously cross-threaded. I can't quite tell where it's located, but definitely get it repaired/replaced. The injector nozzles and the lines to them are strictly high pressure only from the injection pump. There's no return fuel from them. All return fuel on this engine comes from the top of the high-pressure injection pump.

 

[loosegravel]

That fitting is definitely a problem. It looks obviously cross-threaded. I can't quite tell where it's located, but definitely get it repaired/replaced. The injector nozzles and the lines to them are strictly high pressure only from the injection pump. There's no return fuel from them. All return fuel on this engine comes from the top of the high-pressure injection pump.

Also, someone else may have loosened the fittings on top of one or more of the injector nozzles in an effort to bleed the fuel system while cranking. If one of them is loose, you will have an engine miss with not very much fuel leakage at that point. I would put a wrench on the fittings on all of the injector nozzles to make sure that they're tight.

 

[Tommytone]

The -24 TM has several levels of troubleshooting. Look in them all.

Is the set in 60 hertz mode? Do not change the hertz while the set is running. Bad thing can happen.

What position is TB1, (voltage reconnection panel) in?

Kinda sounds like one jug is not firing.

The set is in 60hz mode. I need to look up how to read the TB1 position if we are talking about the block above the high voltage connections. I will verify that and post it

Everyones help has been invaluable here and I greatly appreciate the wisdom. Please keep it coming

 

[loosegravel]

Assuming that you have clean engine oil in this thing, what's your oil pressure when it's running?

 

[Tommytone]

Also, someone else may have loosened the fittings on top of one or more of the injector nozzles in an effort to bleed the fuel system while cranking. If one of them is loose, you will have an engine miss with not very much fuel leakage at that point. I would put a wrench on the fittings on all of the injector nozzles to make sure that they're tight.

The fitting

That fitting is definitely a problem. It looks obviously cross-threaded. I can't quite tell where it's located, but definitely get it repaired/replaced. The injector nozzles and the lines to them are strictly high pressure only from the injection pump. There's no return fuel from them. All return fuel on this engine comes from the top of the high-pressure injection pump.

I was able to find a govvplanet image of an engine for sale where I could point out the fitting. Does that help?

 

[loosegravel]

That fitting is definitely a problem. It looks obviously cross-threaded. I can't quite tell where it's located, but definitely get it repaired/replaced. The injector nozzles and the lines to them are strictly high pressure only from the injection pump. There's no return fuel from them. All return fuel on this engine comes from the top of the high-pressure injection pump.

Ok, I’m sadly mistaken with what I wrote above. I was thinking about a completely different engine. Absolutely this engine has return fuel from each of the injection nozzles as well as from the top of the high pressure injection pump. So yes, repair any and all leaks in the high pressure lines as well as the return lines. I’m not sure if a fuel leak in the return circuit would cause an engine miss. Sorry for the confusion

 

[Tommytone]

Ok, I’m sadly mistaken with what I wrote above. I was thinking about a completely different engine. Absolutely this engine has return fuel from each of the injection nozzles as well as from the top of the high pressure injection pump. So yes, repair any and all leaks in the high pressure lines as well as the return lines. I’m not sure if a fuel leak in the return circuit would cause an engine miss. Sorry for the confusion

Thank you for all your help. More than a few engines out there and it is hard to keep them straight.

I am just hoping I can find a way to contort up in there to get it straight, threaded properly and tightened without removing the exhaust manifold. Lol

 

[Guyfang]

I’m not sure if a fuel leak in the return circuit would cause an engine miss. Sorry for the confusion

Should not cause a miss. Its in effect, low pressure side of the system. But should be addressed, and its a place for the set to lose fuel. Another way to see if a jug is not firing is to losen one injector line at a time. If you losen one, and the engine falters, tighten it up. If you losen one and no change, then there is your problem.

 

[Tommytone]

I’m not sure if a fuel leak in the return circuit would cause an engine miss. Sorry for the confusion

Should not cause a miss. Its in effect, low pressure side of the system. But should be addressed, and its a place for the set to lose fuel. Another way to see if a jug is not firing is to losen one injector line at a time. If you losen one, and the engine falters, tighten it up. If you losen one and no change, then there is your problem.

In trying to think this through how does the set control speed? I understand it is the Act on top the injector pump but how does it control speed? What is the line coming into the act and what does it do?

 

[Guyfang]

The E/A, (Electric Actuator) is mounted to the IP. The MPU, (Magnetic Pick Up) counts teeth on the flywheel, and when the right RPM is reached, turns the E/A on, it opens up a solenoid to allow fuel to flow into the IP and from there to the engine. When the MPU reaches another speed trip point, it kicks out the starter. And away we go. The MPU gives a consent signal to the Electric Governor, to control the Engine Speed/RPM/Hertz. The Gov sends a signal to the E/A, that operates the IP fuel control, keeping the engine running at the right RPM. There is a linkage between the EA and the IP. I am sure there is a better description in the Operator TM.

 

[loosegravel]

The E/A, (Electric Actuator) is mounted to the IP. The MPU, (Magnetic Pick Up) counts teeth on the flywheel, and when the right RPM is reached, turns the E/A on, it opens up a solenoid to allow fuel to flow into the IP and from there to the engine. When the MPU reaches another speed trip point, it kicks out the starter. And away we go. The MPU gives a consent signal to the Electric Governor, to control the Engine Speed/RPM/Hertz. The Gov sends a signal to the E/A, that operates the IP fuel control, keeping the engine running at the right RPM. There is a linkage between the EA and the IP. I am sure there is a better description in the Operator TM.

That’s so much better than I could do. I think that I need to just read these threads and not be so excited about contributing information sometimes Do you know if the EA receives a pulse width modulation signal to adjust engine speed? (PWM)