HELP!! installing the rebuilt IP - MEP-002A Refurb Update

[LuckyDog]

Hey Joe,

Keep us (me!) up to date with this project. Your problem sounds a lot like mine. It runs for a spell (5-10 seconds) AFTER I let go of the start switch. Then dies just like someone turned off the fuel.

I am cetain the selenoid is working ok because I hear the thing clang when the RPMs die down far enough. So I am pretty sure it is not a temperature or oil pressure switch issue.

If one of the switches was faulty, wouldn't it prevent the unit from starting, or cause the selenoid to shutoff before the RPMs died down (i.e. kill the engine rather than clang after it already stopped)???

And I'll give an AMEN to the rusted/frozen fuel line nuts!!!!!!!!!

 

[oshpunit987]

I wouldn't bother taking the injectors out. That would invite more expense. We know it runs so the injectors are good. Check to see if the fuel solenoid shuts the fuel off when you let go of the start switch. There may be an issue with the wiring to the solenoid.

 

[oshpunit987]

Joesco

Where did you get your spin on fuel filters? Did you have any trouble mounting them and do you have the part numbers handy? Thanks

Allen

 

[joesco]

A few days ago, I created a thread with all the info you need regarding the fuel filter mod.

 

[joesco]

The fuel solenoid appears to remain in the open / up position while attempting to start. I have also tried starting it while holding it in the up position.

 

[joesco]

Will do, I do I assume that you have not got your unit running yet either?

Hey Joe,

Keep us (me!) up to date with this project. Your problem sounds a lot like mine. It runs for a spell (5-10 seconds) AFTER I let go of the start switch. Then dies just like someone turned off the fuel.

I am cetain the selenoid is working ok because I hear the thing clang when the RPMs die down far enough. So I am pretty sure it is not a temperature or oil pressure switch issue.

If one of the switches was faulty, wouldn't it prevent the unit from starting, or cause the selenoid to shutoff before the RPMs died down (i.e. kill the engine rather than clang after it already stopped)???

And I'll give an AMEN to the rusted/frozen fuel line nuts!!!!!!!!!

 

[LuckyDog]

Not yet.

Not high on my priorities at the moment. AND, I need to let the PB BLaster soak into the fittings for awhile. (I so am not looking forward to working on those dang fittings) I am leaning towards the "there is crap in the IP" theory. So, until I feel the weather is right for a tear down and the fittings will budge, I am in a holding pattern.

 

[Speddmon]

Joe,

As we get some more information from you we can start to narrow down the problems. We should be able to rule out most electrical issues since you said it died on you while you were holding it in the start position. Things I would check next are...

fuel solenoid, make absolutely sure it's staying energized the whole time...wire it up if necessary.

Fuel lines (without going back through the whole thread to see if you did or didn't check them). Make sure they are all open and flowing freely, especially the tight 90 degree fittings and such. Even though you are getting fuel to the tank, are you getting enough through the IP so it's not starving the engine?

I know you probably hate to do it, but while you have the IP on the engine, go through and do the flow timing test and verify it's timed correctly.

After all of that I might be inclined to try to soak the fittings on the injectors and try to pull them. Maybe one of them is sticking or something along those lines.

Last but not least...are you 100% sure the IP was rebuilt correctly?

 

[Isaac-1]

I would pay careful attention to checking for clogged return fuel lines, if they are clogged they can build up back pressure which can cause many types of injection pumps to shutdown, although I suspect that would usually take more than 5-10 seconds.

Ike

 

[PeterD]

Ike, I've seen them shut down Roosta (Stanadyne) pumps almost instantly, or at least it seems to be an instant shutdown--it is very fast. We had a case where a HMMWV had a pinched return line and whenever the vehicle would get into a certain situation where it needed torque but the passenger's side was low, the return would pinch, and the engine would shut off.

However, if the line is blocked fully, you probably won't even be able to start it... That happened on another HMMWV when the return line *froze* in winter. By disconnecting an injector return line the engine would start, but as soon as you put it back on, it would stall out. Ended up using an old soda bottle to catch the returned fuel so we could get it inside and fix it (major warm up needed for that one!)

 

[joesco]

Trickled charged the batteries over the last few days and this morning I changed the fuel filters. He is starting much
quicker, but again it will only run for about 5 or 10 seconds. Oil pressure seems to be increasing with every
attempt. I confirmed that the solenoid is remaining open and in the up position when I
let go of the start switch and plunger is moving freely. Any other suggestions guys?

 

[Speddmon]

Did you check and double check the fuel and return lines like suggested above?

Like I said, I know it's a pain in the butt, but doing a flow test isn't as bad as pilling the whole IP off. I would start there and make absolutely sure the IP is timed correctly.

Also, the fuel injector line you had welded....are you sure the weld is holding? Not getting air in it anywhere, not leaking? Possible the weld made a "bead" inside the tube. These are small ID tubes, and it will not take much to restrict the flow.

Also, if all else fails...soak the injector fittings and take them out and have them tested and gone over...only a 2 cylinder, one bad injector can cause major headaches.

 

[joesco]

Yes, good flow both ways. I guess the next step in the process of elimination is to do the flow test timing method.

What is weird is that I talk to injection shop in Mass a couple of weeks ago and the old timer told me he has rebuilt many of these pumps and he said that my new pump should use the timing button from the original pump!!!! Not to bring up a prior discussion, but that is the second shop that has said that.

I am still waiting on a couple of take-off fuel lines from the guy I purchased the genset from. When they arrive, I will replace the repaired line. The line was tig welded, but I can be sure what the inside of the line looks like.

As far as the removing the injectors, it will be next to impossible as it looks like someone attempted that in the past and strip both nuts on the small fuel lines. Boy is this frustrating, to say the least!

Did you check and double check the fuel and return lines like suggested above?

Like I said, I know it's a pain in the butt, but doing a flow test isn't as bad as pilling the whole IP off. I would start there and make absolutely sure the IP is timed correctly.

Also, the fuel injector line you had welded....are you sure the weld is holding? Not getting air in it anywhere, not leaking? Possible the weld made a "bead" inside the tube. These are small ID tubes, and it will not take much to restrict the flow.

Also, if all else fails...soak the injector fittings and take them out and have them tested and gone over...only a 2 cylinder, one bad injector can cause major headaches.

 

[Speddmon]

What is weird is that I talk to injection shop in Mass a couple of weeks ago and the old timer told me he has rebuilt many of these pumps and he said that my new pump should use the timing button from the original pump!!!! Not to bring up a prior discussion, but that is the second shop that has said that.

I don't want to keep beating this to death, but the pump shops are WRONG! NONE of the model 50 pumps come with a button, so I could see where they would think you should just re-use your old button. But you even stated earlier in this very thread that you spoke to a tech from Ambac and he told not to re-use the old button. He works for the company who makes the pumps...I think I would trust him just a bit more than some guy who rebuilds the pumps. Also, keep in mind that most of the pump shops aren't employing diesel mechanics, they are employing someone who can follow directions and rebuild a pump according to the manufacturer specs.

As oshspunit said earlier, the books can be wrong, but the fact that these pumps have been around for a LONG LONG time, I would think if there were a misprint as serious as telling you not to re-use a button that could potentially damage your engine, I think someone would have informed them and they would have made a change by now. As a matter of fact I think they probably did...thats why it's highlighted in big red letters in the Ambac manual, DO NOT RE-USE THE OLD BUTTON.

 

[rickf]

You just hit on a key item here! You said someone else stripped the nuts on the injectors, You are not the fist to have this problem with this gen-set!Someone else has been there done that. You need to do the flow timing, you have no idea what was done before and the button may not even have been right before the new pump. I have been a welder for many years and I do not think you are going to weld a line successfully. TIG is just another form of welding, you still have to melt the base metal.

Rick

 

[derby]

I have an engine from a 003 (4cyl) that is going to the scrap yard, there may be some parts on it you could use. send me a PM.

 

[Speddmon]

Great thoughts Rick.

I hadn't even thought of that possibility until you mentioned it. I just assumed that the old button was the correct size for that pump....but a previous owner could have tried to replace the pump and followed someones misguided advice and re-used their button, thereby making it the wrong button for that pump, and subsequently even further off for the current pump. And you are absolutely correct, someone tried to get the injectors out for some reason. I think a flow timing may start to reveal some answers.

 

[joesco]

Well guys from the beginning, I have been underwater and way above my pay grade with this unit. I knew I was in trouble the day after I received it. The tank was loaded with sludge, fuel lines disconnected, filters missing, etc. So with the help from this forum and many fellow members, I began the process of elimination. Lots of time, money and parts including rebuilt IP, new button, new fuel filter system, new oil filter system, new glow plugs, new air filter, several new hoses and I am no further along than when I start this undertaking.

What is even more frustration is that there is no local shop or expert that can lend a hand.

I have had diesels most of driving life (40+ years) and they are "simple" to work on, compare to a gas engine, but this unit is another story!

Enough venting, last night I reviewed the flow timing method in the AMBAC manual and the tolerances relating to measurement between the PC mark and timing pointer have to be in MM's and human error, at least for this guy is off the charts! Before attempting this under taking, I am going to wait for my take-off fuel injector lines to arrive and install them first as the crack repair might be restricting the flow of fuel, as suggested.

HAS ANY ONE TIMED THEIR UNIT USING THIS METHOD?? If so, did you need a new timing button? Were you successful? Thanks again!

 

[Isaac-1]

I just wanted to let you know there are a lot of us following your progress and want to encourage you to hang in there, these sort of projects can be frustrating, but you should remember that they also tend to be the ones where it does not run right up to the moment that it does. It can be far more frustrating trying to track down a randomly recurring problem, or one that only strikes once things warm up.

Ike

 

[joesco]

Ike,
Thanks for the encouragement and I hoping others learn from this thread. I am not one to give in, but...........