Help, threw rod and stuck in Rock Creek WY

[Coal Cracker]

Allright, my question is this

My deuce has it's danger sticker at the 2800 rpm range, I've never dared to push it past 2500, I usually shift at around 2400 and never overspeed downhill.

I'm guaging my truck as a 70, but who knows, it was rebuilt at Toole Depot in 89, rods /mains say they're cut at 010 oversized, supposed 7300 mi. and 3600 hours on the clock, I've read here somewhere that some multi's we're rated for a higher rpm than 2500, with that stroke/ rod length 2500 is maxxxx in my opinion.

Anybody with the knowledge to debunk, or prop up the 2800 theory? I'm thinking that maybe some people are misled by their danger sticker, I too am watching all of the failures and trying to from an opinion.

 

[scooter01922]

2800 is the no load governed speed, 2600 is where that danger sticker should reside. At least thats what i have come up with in my deuce experience.

 

[stumps]

It's all about rpm and over revving the engine. Every internal combustion engine trades longevity for maximum RPM, and horsepower.

Our multifuel engines were born out of the engine used in the White 2-155 tractor... originally a Continental design. The 2-155 tractor engine uses the same block, makes 155HP out of its PTO shaft, and easily lasts 10,000 to 20,000 hours. It has 17:1 compression ratio, and is diesel only. The key feature that accounts for its longevity is the White 2-155 engine has a governor that will not allow it above 2200 rpm!

The military has a long tradition of trading engine longevity for the ability to push the engine beyond its safety limits (if necessary). The old piston engine fighter planes had WEP (War Emergency Power) throttle positions that boosted the HP 10 or 15%, and added water injection to cool the combustion. To use WEP, you had to jam the throttle beyond its limit, which cut a safety wire (making it obvious that you used WEP). If you ever used WEP, your engine was scheduled for overhaul.

Our deuces are slow trucks. They are not meant to tool down the highway at 55+ MPH. Everything about the way they are built is wrong for that service. The engine is being pushed well past its intended operating range, the brakes have a single point catastrophic failure mode. The NDT tires are an unsafe tread on hard slick surfaces. Roll over protection is nonexistent.

If you are willing to be like the military, and keep a motor pool full of spare trucks, a platoon full of spare drivers, and a maintenance staff on call to fix blown engines, go ahead and shave those extra couple of minutes off of your trips, and red line your engine the whole way.

If you are the only driver, think you might like to stay among the living, and you want to keep your fingers (and wallet) out of the guts of your engine, stay closer to 2200 rpm than to 2600 rpm, and your engine will thank you, and treat you like it would in a farm tractor.

-Chuck

 

[clpo]

I had just purchased the truck the day before and was driving to Twin Falls from Denver. Speed at the time of the failure was ~50 mph. Max speed registered on the trip accoring to my GPS was 52.8 mph. The truck was holding 30 psi oil pressure at idle and 45-50 at 2200 RPM. Oil was changed prior to trip - Rotella. Previous owner noted no problems with truck and appears to have been well maintained. No knocks or noise prior to failure.

 

[clpo]

I'm sure that everyone that suffers a similar failure has the same response "I didn't do anything wrong!". If I did, I sure don't know what it was?? I'm chalking it up to experience and like someone posted earlier, I'll have a new deuce with new engine and some spare parts for the future.

By the way, Boyce has been great. Their install and engine price seem fair (ya get what you pay for you know), they stand behind their work, and helped arrange transport from Rock Springs to Ogden. I will pick up the truck Friday and will report results. Will provide specifics answers to those with questions via PM.

 

[clpo]

Will provide specifics answers to those with questions via PM.[/quote]

Was refering to specific questions about service / cost

 

[Brock Steel]

S**t happens. Know one got hurt and everyone went home. Keep us informed on the cost time it took and overall satisfaction. Brock

 

[stumps]

I'm sure that everyone that suffers a similar failure has the same response "I didn't do anything wrong!". If I did, I sure don't know what it was?? I'm chalking it up to experience and like someone posted earlier, I'll have a new deuce with new engine and some spare parts for the future.

By the way, Boyce has been great. Their install and engine price seem fair (ya get what you pay for you know), they stand behind their work, and helped arrange transport from Rock Springs to Ogden. I will pick up the truck Friday and will report results. Will provide specifics answers to those with questions via PM.

It is entirely possible that you didn't do anything wrong at all. That is more scary to the rest of us than thinking you were abusing your engine.

If there were no tell tale noises, like a repetitive klunk.....klunk....klunk... that that leaves out some earlier over revving as the culprit. If your oil pressure was good right up to the failure, that leaves out lubrication... most likely.

All of our deuces likely have remanufactured engines. The problem with remanufactured engines is the reman guys strip down a whole warehouse full of blown engines, and toss the good rods in the rod barrel, and the good pistons in the piston barrel, and the .... well you get the idea. They inspect the parts before they assemble the engine, but if the rod they put in your old engine happened to have been stress damaged in its old engine, they might not notice. It is then a ticking time bomb, waiting for the right moment to go off.

Such things should be a fairly low probability occurrence. If they are going to happen, they should happen in the first few hundred hours after the reman job.

-Chuck

 

[m16ty]

All of our deuces likely have remanufactured engines.

I don't know if this is correct or not. I've seen several engines with rebuild tags on them but most I've seen do not. That leads me to belive that any engine without a rebuild tag hasn't been rebuilt.

 

[JAYHAWK 1962]

Major drag

 

[stumps]

I don't know if this is correct or not. I've seen several engines with rebuild tags on them but most I've seen do not. That leads me to believe that any engine without a rebuild tag hasn't been rebuilt.

I don't know either. The hour meters that I have seen (decidedly few) are all pretty low, but I don't know if that is due to a failure of the meter, lack of use, or a new engine.

I have numerous engines that are similar age that have never been reman'd, so it is likely that many of the deuces have had similar luck.

I was just looking at the pictures of the failed engine, and the rod is free of the crankshaft. That indicates that the cap failed. The crank journal looks clean, smooth, and shiny. Not a bearing failure in my opinion. I am heading towards the belief that the engine was over revved, or the cap was damaged when it was installed on the rod. [If it were my engine, I would be looking at putting it back together... but I do stuff like that.]

I wonder if the governor was working and was set correctly? If it was set so that it didn't govern the engine, it is possible that something innocent like racing the engine a couple of times to hear it roar, or a little poor coordination when working the gas pedal and the clutch, could have caused the damage. If the governor was functioning properly, it shouldn't have been possible to over rev the engine unless he was doing some serious engine braking.

-Chuck

 

[southdave]

It's all about rpm and over revving the engine. Every internal combustion engine trades longevity for maximum RPM, and horsepower.

Our multifuel engines were born out of the engine used in the White 2-155 tractor... originally a Continental design. The 2-155 tractor engine uses the same block, makes 155HP out of its PTO shaft, and easily lasts 10,000 to 20,000 hours. It has 17:1 compression ratio, and is diesel only. The key feature that accounts for its longevity is the White 2-155 engine has a governor that will not allow it above 2200 rpm!

The military has a long tradition of trading engine longevity for the ability to push the engine beyond its safety limits (if necessary). The old piston engine fighter planes had WEP (War Emergency Power) throttle positions that boosted the HP 10 or 15%, and added water injection to cool the combustion. To use WEP, you had to jam the throttle beyond its limit, which cut a safety wire (making it obvious that you used WEP). If you ever used WEP, your engine was scheduled for overhaul.

Our deuces are slow trucks. They are not meant to tool down the highway at 55+ MPH. Everything about the way they are built is wrong for that service. The engine is being pushed well past its intended operating range, the brakes have a single point catastrophic failure mode. The NDT tires are an unsafe tread on hard slick surfaces. Roll over protection is nonexistent.

If you are willing to be like the military, and keep a motor pool full of spare trucks, a platoon full of spare drivers, and a maintenance staff on call to fix blown engines, go ahead and shave those extra couple of minutes off of your trips, and red line your engine the whole way.

If you are the only driver, think you might like to stay among the living, and you want to keep your fingers (and wallet) out of the guts of your engine, stay closer to 2200 rpm than to 2600 rpm, and your engine will thank you, and treat you like it would in a farm tractor.

-Chuck

What did MAN diesel have do with the engine, I have seen Man marine diesel alot bigger but looked same Mine says Her. Lis. by MAN

 

[wsucougarx]

I don't know if this is correct or not. I've seen several engines with rebuild tags on them but most I've seen do not. That leads me to belive that any engine without a rebuild tag hasn't been rebuilt.

Both my USAF M35A2C's do not have a rebuild tag on the engine. The gauges appear to be the same color as the rest of the interior. With that, I have concluded that my '88 and '86 still have their original engines. However my '68 does have a Tooele Rebuild as shown by the dataplate. Hmm, now I've got something else to think about with my '68

 

[cranetruck]

What did MAN diesel have do with the engine, I have seen Man marine diesel alot bigger but looked same Mine says Her. Lis. by MAN

Based on my research, with some input from David Doyle:

MAN patented a combustion process in the 1950's, which involves a specially designed piston cup to better distribute the vaporized fuel within the chamber for a slower burn process. This promotes a more complete combustion of the fuel, resulting in higher efficiency and a more quiet engine. The process also permits burning a variety of fuels, from gasoline to heavy oils. This is what what licensed by Continental, who designed our multifuel engine based on this patent.
The process is also known as the "hypercycle".
Continental also added the Fuel viscosity compensator (FDC) to keep power output the same regardless of the fuels called out by the TM for this engine. The FDC was patented by Continental.

 

[stumps]

The MAN process is actually pretty neat. Their most distinguishing characteristic is a deep chamber into the piston top. It looks sort of like someone stuck their thumb into the top of a clay piston, and left a cave...

Unlike normal diesels, or fuel injected gasoline engines, the injector nozzles don't atomize the fuel, but rather squirt liquid fuel, much like a squirt gun. The liquid fuel hits the hot bottom of the piston's chamber, and then splatters and vaporizes. Because the injectors spray into the piston's chamber at so close to TDC, the fuel is contained within the chamber, away from the cold cylinder walls, which keeps it from sooting quite so much. Also, because there is a stream of fuel coming out of the injector, volatile fuels, like gasoline are kept cooler, and don't ignite the instant the come out of the injector. That helps keep the injector clean, and increases the energy you can get from gasoline, and other light fuels.

When the fuel hits the piston's chamber, and splashes, it becomes finer, vaporizes, and ignites. This is a slower, and smoother combustion process than usually happens in a compression ignition diesel engine. That is why MAN cycle engines are sometimes called quiet diesels... Imagine a deuce engine being called quiet!

Another benefit of having such a coarse stream of fuel is you can run thicker fuels, like motor oil without breaking the end out of the injector nozzle, or damaging the injection pump, like often happens with a normal diesel engine.

-Chuck.

 

[nkawtg]

This falls in my top ten fears......

That settles it, I need TWO deuces.................and a tow bar

 

[wsucougarx]

This falls in my top ten fears......

That settles it, I need TWO deuces.................and a tow bar

That is precisely why have two deuces..well actually three deuces for that same reason. I have a tow bar in each deuce just in case I need to tow one of them.

 

[area52]

That is some good info on the "multi-fuel" process. I hope the OP gets your truck back in good shape for a good price.


As far as having another deuce, heck you need a WRECKER!!

 

[clpo]

Picking her up tomorrow. As for a good price, I paid plenty, but feel like I got plenty. Let's see how she fares long term. overall, Boyce was helpful, courteous, appear to have done good work, and seemed genuinely concerned about cost, quality, timliness. Thanks for all the posts, suggestions, and info.

 

[bassetdeuce]

Picking her up tomorrow. As for a good price, I paid plenty, but feel like I got plenty. Let's see how she fares long term. overall, Boyce was helpful, courteous, appear to have done good work, and seemed genuinely concerned about cost, quality, timliness. Thanks for all the posts, suggestions, and info.

Boyce is pricey for parts, but their customer service is the best.